dasdoing
Major Contributor
this is how I expect a piano recording to sound like. the instrument exists clearly positioned in an ambience instead floating around
I listen exclusively on headphones. Those pianos must be tiny!I listen to a lot of classical and jazz in general, so when I establish if something sounds "well", piano features very high on the things I'd listen to. As does percussion and human voice - and an entire classical ensemble, too (I do avoid the cannon shot in 1812, though, I think that's the silliest audio cliche).
One thing I find downright funny in audiophile publications is when they declare some recordings audiophile pearls they use as reference... and very often these include piano. I get it and we've all read bout it... capturing the piano is particularly challenging. And most piano players have egos, and probably tell the recording engineer "people buy this record because of ME, yet I sound like I am just in the room on the left" (which is how they sound if you're in a concert hall sitting in the audience, of course).
Recording engineers have debates about to best record a piano, there are several theories out there.
I think it is funny, however, when an audiophile reviewer completely goes into the presentation of a piano recording.... which, when *I* listen to it, suffers from what I call "the 30ft piano" recording problem which is very prevalent: you hear one side of the piano coming more from the right speaker, the other side of the keys from the other. They have miked it so that is sounds waaaaay wider than 58 inches or so. There is zero stage when you do that, but many audiophile recordings (and I have to admit I love them) are such. Many Keith Jarrett recordings have that 30ft piano effect, but it's by far not the only one. My speakers are 7ft apart, so it's ridiculous when the piano is presented spanning that entire width... is it a Terasaur with a 10ft wingspan playing? :-D
I just think it is entertaining that we spend so much time talking about measurements of equipment, and very little talking about the flaws in many recordings that are taken as a reference.
Ironically, sometimes the exact same happens with far more compact percussion instruments. I adore Jack DeJohnette, but in several of his (otherwise very well recorded) tracks, he plays gigantic percussion instruments where one hand plays the one of the two conga or bongo drums on one speaker, the other in your other speaker and you wonder... how long are Jack's arms?
I adore Jaques Loussier indeed! Was sad when he passed... My fav is probably the Gymnopedie album...Some of the best piano recordings I've heard are Jacques Loussier Jazz Trio. His "Some of my personal favorites" album is pretty good.
Joseph Spencer, who produced this recording with Peter Nothnagle as engineer, had that attitude with his harpsichord recordings, recording the harpsichord so that it appears between the speakers with ambient spray more spread about. Harpsichords have a way of "throwing their voices": different coloristic elements emerge depending on the angle of the auditor. This is more realistic via speakers than headphones, but the instrument sits firmly enough in the soundfield.For me the most realistic recording of a solo piano is if I think it stands between my speakers.
Just read the Rolling Stone obiturary article on Gary Brooker of Procol Harum - and the connection between Jacques Louissier and their big hit "Whiter Shade of Pale".I adore Jaques Loussier indeed! Was sad when he passed... My fav is probably the Gymnopedie album...
The Paramounts split in 1966, and while Brooker originally planned to retire from performing to work as a songwriter, he met lyricist Keith Reid and forged such a tight working relationship that the pair started a new group: Procol Harum. Their first single, “A Whiter Shade of Pale,” was inspired by Brooker’s love of classical musicians like Johann Sebastian Bach and George Frideric Handel.
“About that time, the Jacques Louissier Trio — which had a pianist, bass player and drummer — made an album called Play Bach,” Brooker told Songwriter Universe in 2020. “They were a jazz trio, and they’d start off with a piece of Bach, and they would improvise around it. Louissier had done a fabulous version of what was called ‘Air On a G String’ which was also used in a set of good adverts in Britain. And all those things came together one morning [on ‘A Whiter Shade of Pale’] … a bit of Bach and ‘Air On a G String’ going through my head.”
It’s amazing how good these recordings are considering that Orchestra Hall is absolutely dreadful acoustically. It’s interesting that subsequent labels preferred to record elsewhere.As I have mentioned many times, I was an usher at Chicago's Symphony Hall in 1957-58 while in high school At age 80, my 64 year old memories are incomplete and fading, but I still remember many things about those days. Those years were in the middle of the tenure of conductor Fritz Reiner when the historic and revered historic "Living Stereo" RCA recordings were made. The CSO recordings from the early to mid-1950s were multi-track (3-channel) reel-to-reel tape.
The switch for consumers from shellac 78rpm records to commercially-available vinyl 33-1/3rpm began when Columbia released their first monaural LP (long-playing) record in 1948, and the stereo format did not enter the consumer market until 1958 The first releases of the CSO recordings in the mid-1950s CSO were monophonic LPs - like the one in the first two images below. In spite of the multi-channel video market today, stereo is still the common standard for recorded music - aided, I'm sure, by the popularity of headphones and IEMs amongst humans, who have only two ears.
RCA released two separately mixed and mastered versions of a 1955 CSO/Reiner performance of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. The first was a mono LP in 1956 and the second, a very popular "Living Stereo" version in 1958 that has seen 16 releases over the years. Two of those releases were CD's, and two were on cassette tape. The remainder were vinyl LPs, with later ones remastered, and the most recent release in 2019. Many releases were in different countries, I assume with cover text in other languages. Both the 1955-56 monaural version (CD13) and the 1959 stereo version (CD32) are included in the 63 CD boxed set [LINK].
Many recordings of classical music from that era are highly prized by collectors, with vintage LPs of the stereo version of this recording (the last three images below) in used, but good condition, currently selling for hundreds of dollars.
Orchestra Hall went through a renovation sometime between Reiner and Solti, it hasn't been the same since.It’s amazing how good these recordings are considering that Orchestra Hall is absolutely dreadful acoustically. It’s interesting that subsequent labels preferred to record elsewhere.
And several more since then. It never has and never will sound good.Orchestra Hall went through a renovation sometime between Reiner and Solti, it hasn't been the same since.
My understanding is that it was great during the Reiner years. Those Living Stereo recordings were among the best of their time.And several more since then. It never has and never will sound good.
No argument on those Living Stereo and Living Presence recordings. A testament to the masterful recording engineers who also did amazing work in Rochester, Minnesota, and other halls. The hall itself was never considered great. I truly hate going there but alas, a necessary evil when trying to hear one of the great orchestras being conducted by a living legend. I'd go as far as to say that the CSO has sounded much better in every other indoor venue I've seen them in than Orchestra Hall. I am disappointed that they are not coming to Wheaton College this season.My understanding is that it was great during the Reiner years. Those Living Stereo recordings were among the best of their time.
Are you the same person who started this exact post on a different site, or did someone copy it? I'm new here, first post, but couldn't help but notice the similarities.I listen to a lot of classical and jazz in general, so when I establish if something sounds "well", piano features very high on the things I'd listen to. As does percussion and human voice - and an entire classical ensemble, too (I do avoid the cannon shot in 1812, though, I think that's the silliest audio cliche).
One thing I find downright funny in audiophile publications is when they declare some recordings audiophile pearls they use as reference... and very often these include piano. I get it and we've all read bout it... capturing the piano is particularly challenging. And most piano players have egos, and probably tell the recording engineer "people buy this record because of ME, yet I sound like I am just in the room on the left" (which is how they sound if you're in a concert hall sitting in the audience, of course).
Recording engineers have debates about to best record a piano, there are several theories out there.
I think it is funny, however, when an audiophile reviewer completely goes into the presentation of a piano recording.... which, when *I* listen to it, suffers from what I call "the 30ft piano" recording problem which is very prevalent: you hear one side of the piano coming more from the right speaker, the other side of the keys from the other. They have miked it so that is sounds waaaaay wider than 58 inches or so. There is zero stage when you do that, but many audiophile recordings (and I have to admit I love them) are such. Many Keith Jarrett recordings have that 30ft piano effect, but it's by far not the only one. My speakers are 7ft apart, so it's ridiculous when the piano is presented spanning that entire width... is it a Terasaur with a 10ft wingspan playing? :-D
I just think it is entertaining that we spend so much time talking about measurements of equipment, and very little talking about the flaws in many recordings that are taken as a reference.
Ironically, sometimes the exact same happens with far more compact percussion instruments. I adore Jack DeJohnette, but in several of his (otherwise very well recorded) tracks, he plays gigantic percussion instruments where one hand plays the one of the two conga or bongo drums on one speaker, the other in your other speaker and you wonder... how long are Jack's arms?
That is what I wrote but I am not a member there. They plagiarized my post there. I wrote every word and it is clear from the follow up. Guess I should be flattered it was copied elsewhere to motivate dialogue.Are you the same person who started this exact post on a different site, or did someone copy it? I'm new here, first post, but couldn't help but notice the similarities.
The Truth about many "Audiophile" Piano Recordings
I listen to a lot of classical and jazz in general, so when I establish if something sounds "well", piano features very high on the things I'd listen to. As does percussion and human voice - and an entire classical ensemble, too (I do avoid the cannon shot in 1812, though, I think that's the sill...audiophilestyle.com
Glenn Gould's last commercial recording [in his lifetime] was also of the Goldberg Variations. This time, he had a much bigger hand in production:
Many Keith Jarrett recordings have that 30ft piano effect
I presumed that, but did want to confirm it. I've flagged the post on the other site to the person who runs it as having been plagiarized from here.That is what I wrote but I am not a member there. They plagiarized my post there. I wrote every word and it is clear from the follow up. Guess I should be flattered it was copied elsewhere to motivate dialogue.
I don't work in the audio industry nor get paid for my hobby. I don't mind unless someone gets paid for appropriating what I wrote .
I presumed that, but did want to confirm it. I've flagged the post on the other site to the person who runs it as having been plagiarized from here.
I know it's not a big deal, but at the same time it is. I think I would be upset to discover that something I had written had been represented by someone else as their own thoughts.