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The Truth about many "Audiophile" Piano Recordings

threni

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I listen to a lot of classical and jazz in general, so when I establish if something sounds "well", piano features very high on the things I'd listen to. As does percussion and human voice - and an entire classical ensemble, too (I do avoid the cannon shot in 1812, though, I think that's the silliest audio cliche).

One thing I find downright funny in audiophile publications is when they declare some recordings audiophile pearls they use as reference... and very often these include piano. I get it and we've all read bout it... capturing the piano is particularly challenging. And most piano players have egos, and probably tell the recording engineer "people buy this record because of ME, yet I sound like I am just in the room on the left" (which is how they sound if you're in a concert hall sitting in the audience, of course).

Recording engineers have debates about to best record a piano, there are several theories out there.

I think it is funny, however, when an audiophile reviewer completely goes into the presentation of a piano recording.... which, when *I* listen to it, suffers from what I call "the 30ft piano" recording problem which is very prevalent: you hear one side of the piano coming more from the right speaker, the other side of the keys from the other. They have miked it so that is sounds waaaaay wider than 58 inches or so. There is zero stage when you do that, but many audiophile recordings (and I have to admit I love them) are such. Many Keith Jarrett recordings have that 30ft piano effect, but it's by far not the only one. My speakers are 7ft apart, so it's ridiculous when the piano is presented spanning that entire width... is it a Terasaur with a 10ft wingspan playing? :-D

I just think it is entertaining that we spend so much time talking about measurements of equipment, and very little talking about the flaws in many recordings that are taken as a reference.

Ironically, sometimes the exact same happens with far more compact percussion instruments. I adore Jack DeJohnette, but in several of his (otherwise very well recorded) tracks, he plays gigantic percussion instruments where one hand plays the one of the two conga or bongo drums on one speaker, the other in your other speaker and you wonder... how long are Jack's arms? :)
I listen exclusively on headphones. Those pianos must be tiny!
 
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pablolie

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Some of the best piano recordings I've heard are Jacques Loussier Jazz Trio. His "Some of my personal favorites" album is pretty good.
I adore Jaques Loussier indeed! Was sad when he passed... My fav is probably the Gymnopedie album...
 

Robin L

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For me the most realistic recording of a solo piano is if I think it stands between my speakers.
Joseph Spencer, who produced this recording with Peter Nothnagle as engineer, had that attitude with his harpsichord recordings, recording the harpsichord so that it appears between the speakers with ambient spray more spread about. Harpsichords have a way of "throwing their voices": different coloristic elements emerge depending on the angle of the auditor. This is more realistic via speakers than headphones, but the instrument sits firmly enough in the soundfield.

 

Xulonn

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I adore Jaques Loussier indeed! Was sad when he passed... My fav is probably the Gymnopedie album...
Just read the Rolling Stone obiturary article on Gary Brooker of Procol Harum - and the connection between Jacques Louissier and their big hit "Whiter Shade of Pale".

The Paramounts split in 1966, and while Brooker originally planned to retire from performing to work as a songwriter, he met lyricist Keith Reid and forged such a tight working relationship that the pair started a new group: Procol Harum. Their first single, “A Whiter Shade of Pale,” was inspired by Brooker’s love of classical musicians like Johann Sebastian Bach and George Frideric Handel.

“About that time, the Jacques Louissier Trio — which had a pianist, bass player and drummer — made an album called Play Bach,” Brooker told Songwriter Universe in 2020. “They were a jazz trio, and they’d start off with a piece of Bach, and they would improvise around it. Louissier had done a fabulous version of what was called ‘Air On a G String’ which was also used in a set of good adverts in Britain. And all those things came together one morning [on ‘A Whiter Shade of Pale’] … a bit of Bach and ‘Air On a G String’ going through my head.”
 

agiletiger

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As I have mentioned many times, I was an usher at Chicago's Symphony Hall in 1957-58 while in high school At age 80, my 64 year old memories are incomplete and fading, but I still remember many things about those days. Those years were in the middle of the tenure of conductor Fritz Reiner when the historic and revered historic "Living Stereo" RCA recordings were made. The CSO recordings from the early to mid-1950s were multi-track (3-channel) reel-to-reel tape.

The switch for consumers from shellac 78rpm records to commercially-available vinyl 33-1/3rpm began when Columbia released their first monaural LP (long-playing) record in 1948, and the stereo format did not enter the consumer market until 1958 The first releases of the CSO recordings in the mid-1950s CSO were monophonic LPs - like the one in the first two images below. In spite of the multi-channel video market today, stereo is still the common standard for recorded music - aided, I'm sure, by the popularity of headphones and IEMs amongst humans, who have only two ears.

RCA released two separately mixed and mastered versions of a 1955 CSO/Reiner performance of Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. The first was a mono LP in 1956 and the second, a very popular "Living Stereo" version in 1958 that has seen 16 releases over the years. Two of those releases were CD's, and two were on cassette tape. The remainder were vinyl LPs, with later ones remastered, and the most recent release in 2019. Many releases were in different countries, I assume with cover text in other languages. Both the 1955-56 monaural version (CD13) and the 1959 stereo version (CD32) are included in the 63 CD boxed set [LINK].

Many recordings of classical music from that era are highly prized by collectors, with vintage LPs of the stereo version of this recording (the last three images below) in used, but good condition, currently selling for hundreds of dollars.

It’s amazing how good these recordings are considering that Orchestra Hall is absolutely dreadful acoustically. It’s interesting that subsequent labels preferred to record elsewhere.
 

Robin L

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It’s amazing how good these recordings are considering that Orchestra Hall is absolutely dreadful acoustically. It’s interesting that subsequent labels preferred to record elsewhere.
Orchestra Hall went through a renovation sometime between Reiner and Solti, it hasn't been the same since.
 

Robin L

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And several more since then. It never has and never will sound good.
My understanding is that it was great during the Reiner years. Those Living Stereo recordings were among the best of their time.
 

agiletiger

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My understanding is that it was great during the Reiner years. Those Living Stereo recordings were among the best of their time.
No argument on those Living Stereo and Living Presence recordings. A testament to the masterful recording engineers who also did amazing work in Rochester, Minnesota, and other halls. The hall itself was never considered great. I truly hate going there but alas, a necessary evil when trying to hear one of the great orchestras being conducted by a living legend. I'd go as far as to say that the CSO has sounded much better in every other indoor venue I've seen them in than Orchestra Hall. I am disappointed that they are not coming to Wheaton College this season.
 

mSpot

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I listen to many piano recordings on Qobuz, but it's rare that the sound is so good that it grabs my attention. It happened when I came across a new release from Swiss pianist Beatrice Burret:
Jugendstil, music of Mahler and Schoenberg, Beatrice Burret (piano), La Dolce Volta LDV100
Burret's performance (and her piano transcriptions from orchestral music) are excellent. At first I didn't recognize the pianist or the record label (La Dolce Volta), but in looking at discography I've heard from both before.

The tone of the piano (Bösendorfer) is captured with great clarity, and bass notes don't get over reverberant and muddy as I hear on many piano recordings. I am particularly struck by the clarity in sustained and decaying notes. This is one of the best sounding solo piano recordings I've heard in recent memory. The album booklet has photos of the recording venue and microphone placements: https://static.qobuz.com/goodies/39/000147593.pdf

f2s7xnggeo6fb_600.jpg
 

Cote Dazur

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@pablolie thank you for this thread and to all that participated (so far).
I am still very new to this forum, even though I have suffered from audiophilia for a very long time. It can be a frustrating condition at times, but with experiences pilling up, if keeping an open mind, the rewards are worth the efforts.
Very unfortunate that we have been and still are exposed to so many conflicting opinions about anything related to trying to have satisfactory music reproduction at home.

My journey, now that I am at over 65, brought me to a situation where I think, recordings and room acoustics are of paramount importance to have a satisfactory musical listening session. Not so evident to get there when most "Audiophile" conversation are about the latest shiny gizmo with golden post and confusing specifications. I guess if most involved in spreading the audiophile gospel were involved in making recordings and invested in real estate, we would be exposed to a very different propaganda.

All that to say that a conversation on piano recordings in an educated manner, like this one, is a welcome breath of fresh air.
Particularly in light of so many comments from "experts" referring as piano being a effective way to recognize the quality of audio equipment. Easier said than done, when the perspective of the recording, does not match what one usually ear when not a piano player.

Reading this thread, reminded me of an experience I had more than 30 years ago. In those days, I was trying to convert all my friends (and anyone who wanted to listen) to my addiction and everyone had to seat and listen to my "Sound System" that was conveniently located in my living room then. Today, I just keep it for my self, in my dedicated, one seat listening room, and a visitor will need to insist to experience it and bring its own music to listen. The experience, which I did not think was anything special back then was that a lady friend, who was a classical excellent pianist, said after a few minutes, it sound like a real piano! I thought she was trying to be nice to me, but also that she was maybe sarcastic, as to me, it just sounded like a piano recording. Since I discovered that many piano are recorded from the player perspective it helped me understand her reaction.

as far as a piano recording I enjoy, some of you might want to try: Arthur Moreira lima, as 12 valsas de esquina
Mi0zMTk3LmpwZWc.jpeg

I have it in Vinyl, but you probably can find it on streaming.
Thank you ASR and thank all for sharing the passion.
 
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Waxx

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Long time ago i assisted the recordings (for live tv broadcast on the national Belgian TV) of the famous "Queen Elisabeth Contest for Piano" finals in the Palais des Beaux-Arts in Brussels, Belgium and there they use a few (Schoeps) SDC's pointed at the hammers from the side, and a stereo setup of LDC's (Gefell UM70's i thought if i remember right) as room mics for the whole orchestra. My main job there was setting up the microphones and cabling for it, on instructions of the chief engineer who was into the control room talking to us over walkietalkie...

I was there in the mixing room during the live broadcast and 90% of the sound of that piano comes from the room mics, not from the close micing with the Schoeps. Those close mics were only used to fill the sound, and were compressed a bit (in parrallel) to give more body to the piano said the mixing engineer after the show when i asked him. The piano close miced recording was mixed to a mono bus to be panned 'natural in the stereo image of the whole orchestra. This was live mixing for a live broadcast, so on the spot with 3 engineers at the desk all the time (and a few assistants (including me) in the back to assist when needed, mixing on a digital broadcast mixing console with a Eventide DSP4000 as only external processor (for reverb). They also needed to add a commentary voice over from an expert panel, and a few pre recoreded intermezzo's so they were in constant communication with the director of the broadcast also.
 

StephenJK

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I listen to a lot of classical and jazz in general, so when I establish if something sounds "well", piano features very high on the things I'd listen to. As does percussion and human voice - and an entire classical ensemble, too (I do avoid the cannon shot in 1812, though, I think that's the silliest audio cliche).

One thing I find downright funny in audiophile publications is when they declare some recordings audiophile pearls they use as reference... and very often these include piano. I get it and we've all read bout it... capturing the piano is particularly challenging. And most piano players have egos, and probably tell the recording engineer "people buy this record because of ME, yet I sound like I am just in the room on the left" (which is how they sound if you're in a concert hall sitting in the audience, of course).

Recording engineers have debates about to best record a piano, there are several theories out there.

I think it is funny, however, when an audiophile reviewer completely goes into the presentation of a piano recording.... which, when *I* listen to it, suffers from what I call "the 30ft piano" recording problem which is very prevalent: you hear one side of the piano coming more from the right speaker, the other side of the keys from the other. They have miked it so that is sounds waaaaay wider than 58 inches or so. There is zero stage when you do that, but many audiophile recordings (and I have to admit I love them) are such. Many Keith Jarrett recordings have that 30ft piano effect, but it's by far not the only one. My speakers are 7ft apart, so it's ridiculous when the piano is presented spanning that entire width... is it a Terasaur with a 10ft wingspan playing? :-D

I just think it is entertaining that we spend so much time talking about measurements of equipment, and very little talking about the flaws in many recordings that are taken as a reference.

Ironically, sometimes the exact same happens with far more compact percussion instruments. I adore Jack DeJohnette, but in several of his (otherwise very well recorded) tracks, he plays gigantic percussion instruments where one hand plays the one of the two conga or bongo drums on one speaker, the other in your other speaker and you wonder... how long are Jack's arms? :)
Are you the same person who started this exact post on a different site, or did someone copy it? I'm new here, first post, but couldn't help but notice the similarities.

 
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pablolie

pablolie

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Are you the same person who started this exact post on a different site, or did someone copy it? I'm new here, first post, but couldn't help but notice the similarities.

That is what I wrote but I am not a member there. They plagiarized my post there. I wrote every word and it is clear from the follow up. Guess I should be flattered it was copied elsewhere to motivate dialogue.
I don't work in the audio industry nor get paid for my hobby. I don't mind unless someone gets paid for appropriating what I wrote .
 
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theREALdotnet

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Glenn Gould's last commercial recording [in his lifetime] was also of the Goldberg Variations. This time, he had a much bigger hand in production:

An important feature of Glenn Gould’s recordings is the lapel microphone.
 

StephenJK

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That is what I wrote but I am not a member there. They plagiarized my post there. I wrote every word and it is clear from the follow up. Guess I should be flattered it was copied elsewhere to motivate dialogue.
I don't work in the audio industry nor get paid for my hobby. I don't mind unless someone gets paid for appropriating what I wrote .
I presumed that, but did want to confirm it. I've flagged the post on the other site to the person who runs it as having been plagiarized from here.

I know it's not a big deal, but at the same time it is. I think I would be upset to discover that something I had written had been represented by someone else as their own thoughts.
 
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pablolie

pablolie

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I presumed that, but did want to confirm it. I've flagged the post on the other site to the person who runs it as having been plagiarized from here.

I know it's not a big deal, but at the same time it is. I think I would be upset to discover that something I had written had been represented by someone else as their own thoughts.

Thank you
 
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