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Your loudspeakers are too small!

Mart68

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I really don't understand why this concept seems to baffle anyone.


"micro dynamics" are the more subtle alterations of loud and soft. Examples are the dynamic differences that happen when someone is playing an acoustic guitar - the little dynamic gradations in how each note may be hit with a slightly different force. Same with a piano player doing a jazz solor, or even a drummer's subtle alterations of force as he's playing a beat, the dynamic differences in force between each stroke. The choice of these gradations is often what *makes* a performance different from another way of interpreting a piece.
In other words something any system will be able to reproduce just fine. Unlike a dynamic swing from PPP to FFF AKA 'macro-dynamics' which many systems will fail on and which is also something better characterised with measurements rather than prose.

'Micro-dynamics' is just a buzz phrase made up by a reviewer (probably from Stereophile) which was copied by other reviewers and then tricked down into mainstream audiophile usage. It sounds a bit technical and authoritative to the uninitiated and gives the reviewer something else to waffle about when trying to fill the column inches in a power cable review.
 
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mhardy6647

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Attitudes like this scare people away from the forum and learning about audio in general. There is a time and place for both subjective and objective discussions. Please don't attempt to gate keep discussion here.

This forum is really a place for anyone to come and learn about audio no matter their technical vocabulary.

-MightyCicada "I wish were Rick Denney" Lord
Well... some folks have better bedside manners than others. ;)
I like a guy like @SIY who can be just as on-point about technical accuracy -- but not be haughtily arrogant about it (unless the other debator is haughty, arrogant, and wrong).
My father used to say of certain people: He has a lot to be humble about. ;)

To me, much of life boils down to signal to noise ratio. I essay to cast my lot with folks offering a high S:N. The low S:N exampars... I kinda filter out.
 
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Digby

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There is an assumption on your side that there is a strong and unique correlation between a layman's term and the actual term. In other words, that when ever an uninformed person says micro-dynamics, he means precisely "linearity of the transfer function" and he merely has another word for it.

This proved wrong so many times that there's hardly anything else one can do, but try to decipher what micro-dynamics mean this particular time it is being used. Since the use is almost specific to an individual. We still don't even know if micro-dynamics mean linearity of the transfer function, not even in this specific debate. So, "what are we debating" looks like a fair question.
I had already said some time back (so many posts, so much of it pointless arguing about terms) what I meant by micro-dynamics.

MattHooper gave essentially the same description I did and then sarumbear answered that what he was describing was "linearity of the transfer function".

So, micro-dynamics does seem to be a thing, in that it is linearity of the transfer function. I gave a description that a few learned posters likely could have recognized and corrected me on earlier (sarumbear arrived later in the thread, so likely missed my description entirely). I did say I was a layman willing to learn. Instead, there were people that just wanted to draw out the discussion over this one term, seemingly to the exclusion of everything else. That is hardly helpful is it?

As I said earlier, if this forum was only open to those fit to author their own scientific papers on the subject, that would be be judged to be of an high standard by known experts, it would have a total of around 300 members.

It would be nice if certain experts were a little more, how shall we say, forgiving of those of us who are neither experts, nor claim to be.

One can notice a thing, describe it (while using the wrong term) and then, some chivalrous (how about just polite?) member can offer a correction to the poor terminology, if it matches something known (as sarumbear did - it was quite possible to translate from MattHooper's subjective description to the technical term sarumbear offered). Job done.

What need is there for pages of "we won't entertain your thread, because this one term you used is incorrect and/or too ambiguous" other than excluding those less knowledgeable than themselves from discussion?
 
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Digby

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Had to check what the thread was about now again.

Answer to question: Small speakers are good as long as you do not play them too loud because then they sound bad.
A distinction I've noticed is that some say 90db is really loud, while others (that play in orchestra, like rdenney) say they regularly see SPL of 115db, if only for milliseconds. Perhaps some of the talking past each other is the fact the some listen, in the main, to music with a relatively low dynamic content, like pop or electronic music of some type(12db dynamic range on average?), and others listen to orchestral music, symphonies and so on (could be well over 30db dynamic range).

90db is quite loud if the content has limited dynamic range (likely with a lot of energy in the bass region, giving a perception greater volume), but if the dynamic range is large then 90db may not be loud enough by a good 20db or so.
 
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DanielT

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A distinction I've noticed is that some say 90db is really loud, while others (that play in orchestra, like rdenney) say they regularly see SPL of 115db, if only for milliseconds. Perhaps some of the talking past each other is the fact the some listen, in the main, to music with a relatively low dynamic content, like pop or electronic music of some type(12db dynamic range on average?), and others listen to orchestral music, symphonies and so on (could be well over 30db dynamic range).

90db is quite loud if the content has limited dynamic range (likely with a lot of energy in the bass region, giving a perception greater volume), but if the dynamic range is large then 90db may not be loud enough by a good 20db or so.
When you start to think it sounds bad, when I think it, when Amir thinks it, when ...Amir is certainly a much better distortion sniffer than I am, for example.I can get annoyed at bad sound one day, another not. Mood, the kind of music I can "escape into" without caring if there may be some distortion.

I think tube amp glow sometimes is cozy, does the sound become cozier "softer" then? If so, what is the reason?

Amplifiers that are driven into clipping, different amounts of dynamics in the music (crest factor), and .... and so on.:)

Check out the differences regarding how much "gun power" different people want. So it depends. Depends on many different factors.
(take that calculator with a pinch of salt, but it can give some indication)

 
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sarumbear

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A distinction I've noticed is that some say 90db is really loud, while others (that play in orchestra, like rdenney) say they regularly see SPL of 115db, if only for milliseconds. Perhaps some of the talking past each other is the fact the some listen, in the main, to music with a relatively low dynamic content, like pop or electronic music of some type(12db dynamic range on average?), and others listen to orchestral music, symphonies and so on (could be well over 30db dynamic range).

90db is quite loud if the content has limited dynamic range (likely with a lot of energy in the bass region, but if the dynamic range is large then 90db may not be loud enough be a good 20db or so.
We all listen to recorded music. Correct? Even though there could be up to 30dB crest factor (average to peak ratio) in live orchestral music that will not be recorded. Audio will be compressed or gain riding applied before being recorded. Classical recording is less compressed than pop music, jazz somewhere in between, but all recordings are compressed.

(BTW, crest factor is different to the dynamic range which is the difference between the faintest note to the loudest note.)

In the professional or broadcast worlds the average audio level on an audio recording or transmit system is called the reference level, which is set at -20dBFS. Engineers try to stay at reference level and compress the loud sections to stay within the limits of the signal. Once the recording done, a mastering engineers compress the signal even more depending on the artist or label's requirements.

If you set your sound system to generate 115dBSPL peaks at 0dBFS than your average level is somewhere between between 95dBSPL for classical and 99dBSPL for pop. Both are extremely loud levels and a health hazard. Not to mention painful to listen for the length of a track/piece.

I sincerely hope people understand levels better and/or do not allow themselves to unhealthy SPL. Anything above 80dBSPL is bad for you and anything above 86dBSPL is pretty loud. Do please use a SPL meter and re-condition yourself to listen quieter. Later in life you will thank me.
 

Plcamp

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I generally understand what someone wants to discuss when they use such terms as micro detail.

It does seem to me that presuming you have the noise and distortion under sufficient control, a system which can deliver a higher spl at a given distortion level will reveal more micro detail simply because you can turn it up louder?
 

DanielT

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If you set your sound system to generate 115dBSPL peaks at 0dBFS than your average level is somewhere between between 95dBSPL for classical and 99dBSPL for pop. Both are extremely loud levels and a health hazard. Not to mention painful to listen for the length of a track/piece.

I sincerely hope people understand levels better and/or do not allow themselves to unhealthy SPL. Anything above 80dBSPL is bad for you and anything above 86dBSPL is pretty loud. Do please use a SPL meter and re-condition yourself to listen quieter. Later in life you will thank me.
Those were wise words.:)

By the way, a lot of other things apply. Outboard motors, lawn mowers and so on. Buy and use:
 

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rdenney

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Go watch Amir’s video on hearing safety. He makes the argument that constant loud industrial sound—the stuff safety standards are designed to mitigate—and music are fundamentally different.

The loudest sound I’ve recorded sitting in front of the percussion section is 110 dB. If If I set the peak to that for playback, a dynamic recording (crest factor of 20, say) is loud but not dangerously so, given that the music is loud only occasionally, and not for a solid hour or more as addressed by safety standards. Even a big work is highly punctuated.

My tuba is every bit as loud at close range, but the bell points away from me.

As for the piano, I leave the lid down in the house.

I’m quite sure my hearing issues are related more to racing cars in my youth than to music performance. And maybe the infection I got in college that required lancing my left eardrum.

Building a system that can play loudly and do it well isn’t the same thing as using it to play constant loud noise at 90 dB and above.

Rick “no cause for panic” Denney
 

sarumbear

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The loudest sound I’ve recorded sitting in front of the percussion section is 110 dB. If If I set the peak to that for playback, a dynamic recording (crest factor of 20, say) is loud but not dangerously so, given that the music is loud only occasionally, and not for a solid hour or more as addressed by safety standards. Even a big work is highly punctuated.
110dB - 26dB (crest factor of 20) = 84dBSPL. In theory you are almost safe but have you measured that crest factor? You said you made the recording. Have you intentionally kept your average audio level 6dB below reference? On many recording devices that will not even “move the needle”.

5424C021-1B70-40A3-8C6E-2538E55001B6.jpeg
 

MakeMineVinyl

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The bolded section simply isn't true.
Its not generally true anymore. In analog tape days the engineers rode the gain of classical music to keep things within the dynamic range of tape. Now, full scale digital is a hard ceiling, and gain is set and not moved so that peaks never get there. Its certainly possible to find compressed classical music, but there's no need for it to be compressed.
 

SIY

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Its not generally true anymore. In analog tape days the engineers rode the gain of classical music to keep things within the dynamic range of tape. Now, full scale digital is a hard ceiling, and gain is set and not moved so that peaks never get there. Its certainly possible to find compressed classical music, but there's no need for it to be compressed.
Can you give some examples of commercial uncompressed recordings? There's that one French company that's done a few (promoted here), and past that.... I can't think of any. I don't compress mine, but I haven't yet recorded anything symphonic, just soloists and small ensembles, and they are decidedly not commercial.
 

sarumbear

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The bolded section simply isn't true.
Do you have proof? I’ve been at many recording and mastering sections and saw it with my own eyes.

A recent example was when I visited an LSO Live recording session at the London Barbican Hall of the Rachmaninov Symphony 2 only a couple of years ago. Another example was viewing the mastering session of a recording made at Studio 1 of Abbey Road of the LSO (can’t recall the piece as it was back in 2014-15). Not to mention that I had been using compression myself when I worked there, albeit that was in the past.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Can you give some examples of commercial uncompressed recordings? There's that one French company that's done a few (promoted here), and past that.... I can't think of any. I don't compress mine, but I haven't yet recorded anything symphonic, just soloists and small ensembles, and they are decidedly not commercial.
The ones from 2L are uncompressed, and Nimbus as far as I know. There's simply no need to compress with digital - I've certainly never had to do it. The noise floor (room tone, musicians breathing and moving) in recording situations generally hover about -60dBFS. Now more mainstream commercial recordings can certainly be. When I regularly edited orchestral film soundtrack music, the compression was obvious from looking at the waveform in a DAW, but they did this simply for the 'shove it in your face' effect (Hans Zimmer "Gladiator" and ones like that).

Non-classical music I would not be surprised if it was all compressed to a degree, and more 'mainstream' classical releases from London (Decca) etc are probably compressed because mainstream releases are not meant to be 'purist'.
 

MattHooper

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There it is; Reductio Ad Amirum. I told you it's a real phenomena.

Joking aside, I think you're wrong as well as @Robin L and @mightycicadalord . Again, I want to state I'm not saying this to provoke.

Cheers, no problemo!

There is an assumption on your side that there is a strong and unique correlation between a layman's term and the actual term. In other words, that when ever an uninformed person says micro-dynamics, he means precisely "linearity of the transfer function" and he merely has another word for it.

Yes, but with the proviso that "linearity of the transfer function" IS the correct technical explanation for what is happening in the phenomena being termed "micro dynamics."

So for example, take someone playing acoustic guitar, like Paco De Lucia:


There really ARE differences in dynamics in the notes he's playing, right? I mean, that's one of the features of performing on the guitar.
There is a constant lively flow of soft to louder strums, and even among the softer runs he's poking out various notes with more force than others.

That he is playing notes with varying force, making for different dynamics is a fact, I'm sure you agree.

THAT is an example of "micro dynamics" - as understood by most audiophiles in my experience. It's not the "blow you out of your chair" dynamic swings of an orchestra going from pianissimo to fortissimo, or a drummer moving from light brush strokes on a snare to picking up sticks and banging the set for all he's worth. It's the sense of life-like dynamics that even occur within the smaller dynamic range of say, playing an acoustic guitar. That can cue you as to the "life like" quality.

As much as Subjective Reviewers are Enemy Number One around here, and god help anyone who might endorse any term found in subjective reviews.....the phenomena above isn't some "fantasy" it's a real thing.

I've played keyboards for many years and early on there were of course "patches" on keyboards that tried to mimic various instruments - e.g. your "guitar" patch. And at one point as we know keyboards started using actual samples of guitars being plucked. But one of the things that distinguished the keyboard guitar from a real guitar was the lack of dynamic variation. Each "pluck" on a keyboard varied little from the next.
So I could transcribe everything Paco De Lucia (or some other guitar player) may play above, and even if I played every note at the same speed, it would utterly lack the dynamic realism of the real thing. It would sound dynamically flat, artificial.

Again...that references the real world phenomenon of the dynamics found in someone playing a real guitar, like the above video.

Now, given this REAL PHENOMENON that I'm describing - using the term micro dynamics - someone can come along and say "Ah, yes, that's a real phenomenon, and there is a technical way to describe what is going on there. The more technical term is "linearity of the transfer function" and HERE is how it explains the phenemon you are describing.

That's GREAT. And INSOFAR as "inearity of the transfer function" IS INDEED addressing exactly that phenemon.

Well...then...yes, the "layman" term and "linearity of the transfer function" are different ways of referring to the same phenomon. Where one realm of description can be even more precise and detailed. Wouldn't you agree?

On the other hand, if it turns out that linearity of the transfer function ISN'T exactly the technical explanation for the differing dynamics of the player, well that's ok too and we'd ask what is the more accurate technical description. But what DOESN'T seem legitimate, is to pretend the phenomenon referred to by "micro dynamics" just doesn't exist, like it's some fantasy made up by the Evil Subjective Reviewer.


This proved wrong so many times that there's hardly anything else one can do, but try to decipher what micro-dynamics mean this particular time it is being used. Since the use is almost specific to an individual.

I disagree. I say this because I can't remember every seeing the term "micro dynamics" by a subjective reviewer, or other audiophile, that didn't refer essentially to the phenomenon I'm describing.


We still don't even know if micro-dynamics mean linearity of the transfer function, not even in this specific debate. So, "what are we debating" looks like a fair question.

Agreed. See above. I don't know if "linearity of the transfer function" describes the phenmononon referred to by "micro dynamics" but I DO KNOW that the phenemonon referred to by "micro dynamics" is quite real.

This thread looks very much like "Hey everyone, I heard something and I trust my ears so I'm sure it's not my impression but an objective phenomena, now go out there and find me what it is unless you want to be accused of not being welcoming to me". I have a feeling that even when/if you find something there will be no way of proving that's what OP was referring to. Not even if he accepts the explanation.

Who here could possibly doubt that there are changes in force/dynamics that occur when a musician is playing an instrument? Do you or anyone doubt that in the above video Paco isn't alternating the force and dynamics among the notes he is playing? This isn't simply a "trust my ears" thing...it's a way of referencing phenomena we all readily know to be true.

And we know that dynamics of music, both large and small, can be compressed "unrealistically" in all sorts of ways via the recording/producing process. (I can apply tons of compression in my DAW to a guitar track to reduce the dynamics to something more artificial sounding).

Then we have the question of whether one system (or speaker) may be able to produce the sense of "micro dynamics" more realistically than another.

And even then, there IS still the question of course as to whether someone is making an accurate assessment when appealing to "micro dynamics." Maybe he is being unduly influenced by other factors to think "this system produces more life like sense of micro dynamics in this guitar track."

Personally, subjectively, I find that one of the aspects that cues a "life-like" impression includes realistic micro dynamics. I very rarely hear an acoustic guitar track for instance, classical or otherwise, that doesn't sound artificially compressed vs what I hear in the presence of a real guitar (or when I play guitar).

But the original question I was answering was what was MEANT by the term "micro dynamics" and it's a real thing. If someone here has a technical explanation, that's great.
 

Bill Brown

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I suspected that would generate some skepticism...it isn't completely unwarranted and I don't want to be too feisty. But the bolded section was an absolute, and those are almost always wrong. On the other hand, since the advent of digital compression it has indeed become almost ubiquitous (of course it was done in the analog domain previously, but was applied less heavy-handedly), and I feel has caused an entire generation of popular music (post early 90s) to be ruined. Thankfully, popular music isn't my main diet, but the RHCPs post '91? Lord help us. Rick Rubin.....

So yes, it is a niche, and I do think compression can be done tastefully.

I am fairly confident that Reference Recordings doesn't (or at least didn't) use compression:

Doug MacLeod – There’s A Time​

Audiophile Album: Doug Macleod - There's a Time
Beautiful, honest blues, brought by Doug Macleod and released on HDCD on Reference Recordings, the record label of sound engineer and legend Prof. Keith O. Johnson. Recorded live by himself in one single take in the studio’s of Skywalker Sound, without overdubs, compression or other recording enhancements. Recording chain was deliberately kept very pure and that reflects the sound of this recording. This album is very rich on (micro) details and when listened on the better high end audio setup, Macleod is literally standing in your living room, playing in front of you. Winner of 2 Blues Music Awards: Acoustic Artist of the Year & Acoustic Album of the Year.

(I haven't seen this site before, not endorsing it, but will give attribution):


Also:


I am very confident there are others.

So, yes, the exception proves the rule, but the exception also dispels the absolute. And I would be remiss if I didn't note JGH's axiom that the quality of the recording is often inversely proportional to the quality of the music.....I would rather listen to Coltrane on a table radio than a perfect, direct to disk recording of "Tibetan nose whistling" (I think was the phrase he used). Though the Wilson recording above I highly recommend.

Bill​
 

SIY

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Cheers, no problemo!



Yes, but with the proviso that "linearity of the transfer function" IS the correct technical explanation for what is happening in the phenomena being termed "micro dynamics."

So for example, take someone playing acoustic guitar, like Paco De Lucia:


There really ARE differences in dynamics in the notes he's playing, right? I mean, that's one of the features of performing on the guitar.
There is a constant lively flow of soft to louder strums, and even among the softer runs he's poking out various notes with more force than others.

That he is playing notes with varying force, making for different dynamics is a fact, I'm sure you agree.

THAT is an example of "micro dynamics" - as understood by most audiophiles in my experience. It's not the "blow you out of your chair" dynamic swings of an orchestra going from pianissimo to fortissimo, or a drummer moving from light brush strokes on a snare to picking up sticks and banging the set for all he's worth. It's the sense of life-like dynamics that even occur within the smaller dynamic range of say, playing an acoustic guitar. That can cue you as to the "life like" quality.

As much as Subjective Reviewers are Enemy Number One around here, and god help anyone who might endorse any term found in subjective reviews.....the phenomena above isn't some "fantasy" it's a real thing.

I've played keyboards for many years and early on there were of course "patches" on keyboards that tried to mimic various instruments - e.g. your "guitar" patch. And at one point as we know keyboards started using actual samples of guitars being plucked. But one of the things that distinguished the keyboard guitar from a real guitar was the lack of dynamic variation. Each "pluck" on a keyboard varied little from the next.
So I could transcribe everything Paco De Lucia (or some other guitar player) may play above, and even if I played every note at the same speed, it would utterly lack the dynamic realism of the real thing. It would sound dynamically flat, artificial.

Again...that references the real world phenomenon of the dynamics found in someone playing a real guitar, like the above video.

Now, given this REAL PHENOMENON that I'm describing - using the term micro dynamics - someone can come along and say "Ah, yes, that's a real phenomenon, and there is a technical way to describe what is going on there. The more technical term is "linearity of the transfer function" and HERE is how it explains the phenemon you are describing.

That's GREAT. And INSOFAR as "inearity of the transfer function" IS INDEED addressing exactly that phenemon.

Well...then...yes, the "layman" term and "linearity of the transfer function" are different ways of referring to the same phenomon. Where one realm of description can be even more precise and detailed. Wouldn't you agree?

On the other hand, if it turns out that linearity of the transfer function ISN'T exactly the technical explanation for the differing dynamics of the player, well that's ok too and we'd ask what is the more accurate technical description. But what DOESN'T seem legitimate, is to pretend the phenomenon referred to by "micro dynamics" just doesn't exist, like it's some fantasy made up by the Evil Subjective Reviewer.




I disagree. I say this because I can't remember every seeing the term "micro dynamics" by a subjective reviewer, or other audiophile, that didn't refer essentially to the phenomenon I'm describing.




Agreed. See above. I don't know if "linearity of the transfer function" describes the phenmononon referred to by "micro dynamics" but I DO KNOW that the phenemonon referred to by "micro dynamics" is quite real.



Who here could possibly doubt that there are changes in force/dynamics that occur when a musician is playing an instrument? Do you or anyone doubt that in the above video Paco isn't alternating the force and dynamics among the notes he is playing? This isn't simply a "trust my ears" thing...it's a way of referencing phenomena we all readily know to be true.

And we know that dynamics of music, both large and small, can be compressed "unrealistically" in all sorts of ways via the recording/producing process. (I can apply tons of compression in my DAW to a guitar track to reduce the dynamics to something more artificial sounding).

Then we have the question of whether one system (or speaker) may be able to produce the sense of "micro dynamics" more realistically than another.

And even then, there IS still the question of course as to whether someone is making an accurate assessment when appealing to "micro dynamics." Maybe he is being unduly influenced by other factors to think "this system produces more life like sense of micro dynamics in this guitar track."

Personally, subjectively, I find that one of the aspects that cues a "life-like" impression includes realistic micro dynamics. I very rarely hear an acoustic guitar track for instance, classical or otherwise, that doesn't sound artificially compressed vs what I hear in the presence of a real guitar (or when I play guitar).

But the original question I was answering was what was MEANT by the term "micro dynamics" and it's a real thing. If someone here has a technical explanation, that's great.
I couldn't make it through the wall of words, but your private definition of "microdynamics" makes no sense for program material.
 

MattHooper

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In other words something any system will be able to reproduce just fine.

I don't find that to be the case. Can you explain to me how literally "any system" will realistically produce, say, the Paco De Lucia's playing in the piece in the video, equally well?

(And even if it turns out that "any" system can reproduce utterly realistic/accurate dynamics such as that, it's still the case that variations in micro dynamics exist, and also that some recordings will preserve the microdynamics more than others).

Unlike a dynamic swing from PPP to FFF AKA 'macro-dynamics' which many systems will fail on and which is also something better characterised with measurements rather than prose.

'Micro-dynamics' is just a buzz phrase made up by a reviewer (probably from Stereophile) which was copied by other reviewers and then tricked down into mainstream audiophile usage. It sounds a bit technical and authoritative to the uninitiated and gives the reviewer something else to waffle about when trying to fill the column inches in a power cable review.

That seems contradictory.

You literally just acknowledged and described the difference between "micro" and "macro" dynamics - showing they are distinct in that "any system" can reproduce micro dynamics while "many systems" will fail on "macro dynamics."

And then in the next breath dismissed this distinction as simply made up by subjective reviewers.

This is the strange place you get when you become so allergic to any term found in subjective reviews, that you will reject them even at the cost of incoherence.
 
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