Absolute Polarity - Myth or "Important"?

[Deleted member 23982]

…except when ‘we’ do it sighted, it is not the sound waves that dominate our conclusions with respect to preference…

i have to set my topping d10 to inversed to hear the better sound tho just accept that some can hear it, and it may come down only to the speakers you use, maybe its a "good" thing you cant hear any difference (tho i would still set the right polarity, just to have it done right....)

 

[Newman]

just accept that some can hear it, and it may come down only to the speakers you use, maybe its a "good" thing you cant hear any difference

Try to read and understand the article better. Everyone agrees that it can be heard.

Then try not to be so condescending as well as incomprehending.

 

[Thomas_A]

Just want to refer to @KSTR and his example in this thread

#83

 

[Deleted member 23982]

Then try not to be so condescending as well as incomprehending.

it wasnt meaned like that, i just cant explain it else, pretty certainly it depends on your speakers how pronounced this effect is, probably most depeding on the crossover from what i read here so far
correct phase sounds more natural and "things" have greater impact, if the artist didnt fucked up (or the speakers)... atleast with my speakers, not "all" songs will sound better but i would say a majority
if you cant put your finger on it which one sounds better ... -> use the test signals i provided and trust me (tho there is a slight possiblity that its just my speakers, lets see what presonus tells me about the crossover...)

 

[KSTR]

Thread title is : Absolute Polarity - Myth or "Important".
For me it's not a myth but it's not important either. Some very subtle changes not worth loosing any sleep over.

 

[DimitryZ]

…except when ‘we’ do it sighted, it is not the sound waves that dominate our conclusions with respect to preference…

I think the area of personal preference is just that. I don't see that an audible, but complex effect should be ignored just because there is no comprehensive understanding of its' workings. A perfectly reasonable position is allow personal choice to play a role.

 

[DimitryZ]

Thread title is : Absolute Polarity - Myth or "Important".
For me it's not a myth but it's not important either. Some very subtle changes not worth loosing any sleep over.

However, since it can be important with some recordings and in some systems, why not have facilities to explore it?

Certainly in our hobby, among mind-boggling "devices" claiming really bizzare "improvements," polarity switching stands out as far more rational - and much less expensive.

 

[Holmz]

I think the area of personal preference is just that. I don't see that an audible, but complex effect should be ignored just because there is no comprehensive understanding of its' workings. A perfectly reasonable position is allow personal choice to play a role.

If there is a signal that is deemed as being correct then the poutput can only be correct if it matches the input.
One may like to chuck a minus suing in there, but the whole signal is then upside down at that point.

it may be subtle, but I would not want to start with a known flaw in the system… irregardless of whether some percentage of recordings were boned in the studio.

 

[threni]

I'll do it for $499.95.

It's just a race to the bottom!

 

[DimitryZ]

If there is a signal that is deemed as being correct then the poutput can only be correct if it matches the input.
One may like to chuck a minus suing in there, but the whole signal is then upside down at that point.

it may be subtle, but I would not want to start with a known flaw in the system… irregardless of whether some percentage of recordings were boned in the studio.

I think of it as "best compromise" choice. A multi mic, multi track, multi sessions recording will have a variety of polarities once finally mixed down to two tracks.

Keeping one's stereo in positive polarity is no more valid than flipping it to negative.

When I cared enough about it, I would try to choose it so the singer or the soloist would sound best.

But with a remote switch, it's really zero effort to settle on a choice, or decide it's moot for this recording.

 

[DimitryZ]

It's just a race to the bottom!

Not at all. @solderdude is nice enough to make two versions of the A/B switch he is building - one as described and another with a single set of XLR outs, where the switch controls polarity, instead of source.

Something I wanted to have as part of the preamp for years, but couldn't find together with other features deemed more essential.

Very happy to have finally get this opportunity.

 

[Holmz]

I think of it as "best compromise" choice. A multi mic, multi track, multi sessions recording will have a variety of polarities once finally mixed down to two tracks.

I am not sure we have proof that the sessions would have differing polarities?
I can see how the studio could be inverted or positive, but it takes either a pretty conscious decision to find a way to invert the signal, or it take a peice of inverting gear.
(One cannot do it with a simple cable, unless maybe an XLR that was soldered up wrong.

Keeping one's stereo in positive polarity is no more valid than flipping it to negative.

If we want a system that is true to the source, then I would not start with a system that is obviously incorrect.
But YMMV

When I cared enough about it, I would try to choose it so the singer or the soloist would sound best.

But with a remote switch, it's really zero effort to settle on a choice, or decide it's moot for this recording.

I cannot imagine why we would have recording engineers make a choice between which phase to use. But if they are, then yes, the whole thing is bone right at the beginning.

A three mic live recording would seem to be a hard thing to have jacked up.

Not at all. @solderdude is nice enough to make two versions of the A/B switch he is building - one as described and another with a single set of XLR outs, where the switch controls polarity, instead of source.

Something I wanted to have as part of the preamp for years, but couldn't find together with other features deemed more essential.

I think he meant a race to the bottom in price… Being 5 cents cheaper.

 

[DimitryZ]

I am not sure we have proof that the sessions would have differing polarities?
I can see how the studio could be inverted or positive, but it takes either a pretty conscious decision to find a way to invert the signal, or it take a peice of inverting gear.
(One cannot do it with a simple cable, unless maybe an XLR that was soldered up wrong.



If we want a system that is true to the source, then I would not start with a system that is obviously incorrect.
But YMMV



I cannot imagine why we would have recording engineers make a choice between which phase to use. But if they are, then yes, the whole thing is bone right at the beginning.

A three mic live recording would seem to be a hard thing to have jacked up.



I think he meant a race to the bottom in price… Being 5 cents cheaper.

Absolute phase can only be controlled in a two or maybe three mic recording with meticulous attention to the amplification and mastering chains.

In a multi mic recording, absolute phase disappears. Remember, phase and distance are interchangeable quantities. Once you use two mics at different locations to record a single voice or instrument and roll the tape or digital recorder simultaneously for both mics - and this is what studios do - you have phase incoherence.

Recording engineers do flip phase and shift tracks intentionally, but usually not out of carelessness or malice - it's because they understand that their many tracks are in various, uncontrolled phases relative to one another and they are trying to get us the best sound by ear. And this the best case scenario.

In playback, our speakers are more often than not phase incoherent as well as a function of frequency. Carefully designed ones can be, which was a priority for me in purchasing Eminent Technology planars. They do a very decent square wave from about 100Hz and up.

Bottom line is that if you are listening to a VERY carefully made recording, where the engineer was absolute phase aware AND you are playing it back on a phase coherent, non-inverting system, you are doing great. In all other cases, changing absolute phase is well worth the trouble, on at least some fraction of recordings.

I understand what "race to the bottom" is - I am an American, after all. I meant I wasn't looking for the cheapest price here.

 

[Holmz]

Absolute phase can only be controlled in a two or maybe three mic recording with meticulous attention to the amplification and mastering chains.

I am not a recording engineer, but I cannot understand how mics, their amps, etc can invert the phase?

In a multi mic recording, absolute phase disappears. Remember, phase and distance are interchangeable quantities. Once you use two mics at different locations to record a single voice or instrument and roll the tape or digital recorder simultaneously for both mics - and this is what studios do - you have phase incoherence.

Phase and distance are only valid at one frequency.
I thought what we were talking about here were thing like pluosive like the letter ”P” in please, potato, paws… and then whether those P sounds are sucking in, or pushing out.

 

[Lambda]

The discussion diverted in a stage way. abut microphones, recordings "natural" phase and so on
The phases is "right" the way it is on the record. Per Definition.

So your Systems job is to reproduce this and convert the 1 and 0 to sound pressure waves (or the groove wobbles or what ever medium your using)
So set it up one and check if it is the right way around. if not change it. Easy.

If you want to "experiment" and see if you can hear a difference just do it in software.

 

[DimitryZ]

I am not a recording engineer, but I cannot understand how mics, their amps, etc can invert the phase?


Phase and distance are only valid at one frequency.
I thought what we were talking about here were thing like pluosive like the letter ”P” in please, potato, paws… and then whether those P sounds are sucking in, or pushing out.

Any amplification or filtering system *can* invert phase.

One the relationship between phase, distance and time: more precisely, uncontrolled distance can only result in correct phase at ONE frequency. Or, stating it in a different way, uncontrolled distance results in uncontrolled phase for almost all frequencies. Multiply this by number of mics, number of sessions and number of amplification stages involved in a typical modern recording and the incidence of actually correct and coherent phase becomes vanishingly small.

 

[DimitryZ]

The discussion diverted in a stage way. abut microphones, recordings "natural" phase and so on
The phases is "right" the way it is on the record. Per Definition.

So your Systems job is to reproduce this and convert the 1 and 0 to sound pressure waves (or the groove wobbles or what ever medium your using)
So set it up one and check if it is the right way around. if not change it. Easy.

If you want to "experiment" and see if you can hear a difference just do it in software.

The natural way to change absolute phase in an analogue amplification chain of a multi-source system is inside the preamp or at the preamp/amp interface. Once the source selection and volume setting is done.

One can also do it at the speaker/amp interface, but in a dual mono amp system like mine, it leads to long cables or dual switches, which is inelegant.

 

[Holmz]

Any system can invert phase.

More precisely, uncontrolled distance can only result in correct phase at ONE frequency. Or, stating it in a different way, uncontrolled distance results in uncontrolled phase for almost all frequencies. Multiply this by number of mics, number of sessions and number of amplification stages involved in a typical modern recording and the incidence of actually correct and coherent phase becomes vanishingly small.

We are obviously not communicating effectively.

There is no absolute phass, and the distance to the speaker, or distance to the mic is way different than a speaker sucking in on a gunshot, when it should be pushing out.
So I am basically saying that there is an absolute polarity… which has noting to do with an absolute phase… other than it is referred to as inverted phase. Which is inverted for all frequencies for a mic.

With a speaker these may also be inverted for every other driver depending on the crossover…

 

[DimitryZ]

We are obviously not communicating effectively.

There is no absolute phass, and the distance to the speaker, or distance to the mic is way different than a speaker sucking in on a gunshot, when it should be pushing out.
So I am basically saying that there is an absolute polarity… which has noting to do with an absolute phase… other than it is referred to as inverted phase. Which is inverted for all frequencies for a mic.

With a speaker these may also be inverted for every other driver depending on the crossover…

There is a technical thread around here that seems to dispute your view with maths.

Phase and polarity are absolutely and definitionally interchangeable for sine waves, which music can easily be decomposed to with Fourier transforms. Reverse phase is simply Pi away from correct phase. Neither is strictly speaking "correct," they are just time delayed relative to each other.

This is all well known to recording engineers. There are "how to" tutorials online for younger ones on how to reconcile phase discrepancies between multiple mics around the drum kit, for example. Techniques include track phase inversion, small time track shifting and small distance mic movements. In this context, near field effects dominate.

 

[Holmz]

There is a technical thread around here that disputes your view with maths.

Is it this:

https://sigproc.mit.edu/_static/spring20/lectures/lec06a.pdf

Phase and polarity are absolutely and definitionally interchangeable for sine waves,

I am not talking about sine waves, I am talking about impulses.
How do we get a positive impulse to end up as a negative signal?

which music can easily be decomposed to with Fourier transforms. Reverse phase is simply Pi away from correct phase. Neither is strictly speaking "correct," they are just time delayed relative to each other.

How does this work for rotating an impulse through some phase angles?