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Why do records sound so much better than digital?

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weesch

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Oh come on. This is a study about sounds generated by a fish and this particular example is a sound that is different from other sounds in the study. Even though it is recorded at 44.1 kHz, which is higher than other samples, it doesn't show harmonic banding, while the others do. It has nothing to do with 44.1 vs higher sampling rates.
sorry (i'am not english)
but i notice a difference between 44.1 khz sample rate and 96 khz sampler rate only in my yamaha mixer....
so if 44.1 khz is enough for recording why using higher samplerate for recording ?
what means this document ?
best regards
weesch
 

Robin L

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ok Robin
it is true that beyond 12 khz I hear nothing ... but then how to explain that at 96 khz the highs are more precise on my 01v96 yamaha than at 44.1 khz ... there must be a difference ! a finer resolution of frequency reproduction when increasing the sampling frequency https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_Stream_Digital#/media/Fichier:PCM-vs-DSD.svg
it's like the resolution of a screen ... the more you decrease the resolution the more the curves look like stairs
so 20 khz at 44.1 khz
it's just a step that goes through 0 in the period ...
not great as audio reproduction.
best regards
weesch
Wishful thinking, projection, lack of a DBT.
Also, there isn't a "Stairstep" with digital audio, that is simply one visual expression of how the data is presented. There's a YouTube [can't find it right now] that demonstrates that within the 20khz bandwidth, there is no change of sinewaves recorded to digital compared to source. None, and that's not true with analog sources.
 
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weesch

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Robin L

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A Surfer

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Vinyl doesn't sound better, what rot. I was so happy to leave vinyl behind. My brother still rocks a really nice vinyl rig and I don't hear any magic. And he has a very nice turntable, has great quality and cared for records, but still no magic.
 

danadam

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je suis nul en mathématiques....
Huh... you really have never seen Monty's "D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell" video? Here's an analog signal generator producing 20 kHz signal that goes through analog-to-digital, then digital-to-analog conversion and the result is displayed on an analog osciloscope (this is from 5:39 but the video is worth watching from the beginning):
 

weesch

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Ok thank
so recording at 192 khz is the same than recording at 44.1 khz ???
i still don't understand why analog and dsd recording have the same waveform and impulse ???????
best regards
 

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Robin L

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Huh... you really have never seen Monty's "D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell" video? Here's an analog signal generator producing 20 kHz signal that goes through analog-to-digital, then digital-to-analog conversion and the result is displayed on an analog osciloscope (this is from 5:39 but the video is worth watching from the beginning):
This is the video I mentioned in post # 1023.
 

weesch

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Huh... you really have never seen Monty's "D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell" video? Here's an analog signal generator producing 20 kHz signal that goes through analog-to-digital, then digital-to-analog conversion and the result is displayed on an analog osciloscope (this is from 5:39 but the video is worth watching from the beginning):
thanks a lot ...i don't understand all but what i understand is that the square wave from the osciloscope is not the same than the square wav passing through the emagic sound card and for having a perfect square wav you have to have infinite harmonics so....
is recording at high samplerate let you have more harmonics to reproduce the square wav ?
 

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levimax

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can you explain use this document please ?
best regards
This pictures is "misinformation" and is not correct, there is no difference between a 20Khz sine wave sampled and played back at 44.1 Khz and one sampled and played back at 192 Khz or higher. The only advantage of higher sample rate is that it can capture higher frequencies.
 

weesch

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This pictures is "misinformation" and is not correct, there is no difference between a 20Khz sine wave sampled and played back at 44.1 Khz and one sampled and played back at 192 Khz or higher. The only advantage of higher sample rate is that it can capture higher frequencies.
ok thanks a lot....
but is higher sample rate ( 96 khz 192 khz) have a better resolution than 44.1 khz to reproduce the 20hz - 20 khz bandwitch ? because when i record at 96 khz with my creamware scope pulsar 2 and my yamaha 01v96 i can hear that i have better treble ?
or maybe it's me who dream having a better sound at 96 khz ?
 
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levimax

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ok thanks a lot....
but is higher sample rate ( 96 khz 192 khz) have a better resolution than 44.1 khz to reproduce the 20hz - 20 khz bandwitch ?
No, the resolution is the same, watch that long video posted, it explains everything and after watching you will know more than 99% of people and will know the difference between scientific facts and audiophile folk lore when it comes to digital audio.
 

weesch

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No, the resolution is the same, watch that long video posted, it explains everything and after watching you will know more than 99% of people and will know the difference between scientific facts and audiophile folk lore when it comes to digital audio.
ok ....i see....so 44.1 is enough thank a lot....my hardware is good enough ....for the sound quality
but with cubase at 1024 buffer size you have 1024/44.1=23 millisecond latency AD and 23 millisecond DA ...
and you cannot play music with 46 millisecond of latency....
so maybe they use higher samplerate to use cubase with a higher speed at high buffer size....
because at 192 khz at 1024/192khz = 5 millisecond AD and 5 millisecond DA and you will have 10 millisecond for vst plugins...
192 khs at 1024 buffer is still not enough to play vst plugins near real time....
but it's another subject than audio quality...
thanks
 

levimax

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ok ....i see....so 44.1 is enough thank a lot....my hardware is good enough ....for the sound quality
but with cubase at 1024 buffer size you have 1024/44.1=23 millisecond latency AD and 23 millisecond DA ...
and you cannot play music with 46 millisecond of latency....
so maybe they use higher samplerate to use cubase with a higher speed at high buffer size....
because at 192 khz at 1024/192khz = 5 millisecond AD and 5 millisecond DA and you will have 10 millisecond for vst plugins...
192 khs at 1024 buffer is still not enough to play vst plugins near real time....
but it's another subject than audio quality...
thanks
Recording and playback are different, there are a lot of reasons to use higher sampling rates and bit depth for recording and mixing but for play back 44.1/16 is fine.
 

Blumlein 88

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Wishful thinking, projection, lack of a DBT.
Also, there isn't a "Stairstep" with digital audio, that is simply one visual expression of how the data is presented. There's a YouTube [can't find it right now] that demonstrates that within the 20khz bandwidth, there is no change of sinewaves recorded to digital compared to source. None, and that's not true with analog sources.
Here is the one I think you have in mind. All audiophiles should be required to watch this three times before posting about digital's workings in my opinion.
 

antcollinet

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Huh... you really have never seen Monty's "D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell" video? Here's an analog signal generator producing 20 kHz signal that goes through analog-to-digital, then digital-to-analog conversion and the result is displayed on an analog osciloscope (this is from 5:39 but the video is worth watching from the beginning):
Well I hadn't.

And that is a *really* helpful video. Explaining in 20minutes some stuff that has not been clear to me for years. Thanks (also to anyone who posted it earlier - I saw, but didn't get round to viewing unil now) for posting it.
 

tmtomh

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ok thanks a lot....
but is higher sample rate ( 96 khz 192 khz) have a better resolution than 44.1 khz to reproduce the 20hz - 20 khz bandwitch ? because when i record at 96 khz with my creamware scope pulsar 2 and my yamaha 01v96 i can hear that i have better treble ?
or maybe it's me who dream having a better sound at 96 khz ?

As the video posted above indicates, digital sampling theory is based on the fact that any frequency can be accurately encoded if the sample rate is high (fast) enough to sample it twice. By "accurate" I mean if you digitally encode, say, a 1kHz signal, it can be decoded - played back - as a 1kHz signal. It will not get played back as a 1.4kHz signal or an 800Hz signal.

This is why you might have noticed that the maximum frequency that can be handled by any sample rate is exactly 1/2 that sample rate, aka the Nyquist limit: since every frequency must be sampled at least twice, your maximum recordable frequency is the sample rate divided by two.

So with that in mind, a 192kHz sample rate can indeed capture more information than a 44.1kHz sample rate - but all that additional information is above the 22.05kHz Nyquist limit (maximum recordable frequency) of a 44.1kHz sample-rate system. And since 22.05kHz is already above the limit of human hearing, the higher frequencies that can be recorded by a 192kHz sample-rate system are inaudible - not "basically inaudible" or "inaudible except to highly trained listeners," but rather totally, by-definition inaudible because human beings simply do not hear those frequencies. In other words, the fact that each frequency needs at least two samples and that higher sample rates capture additional frequencies that are inaudible to us is not an experiential or perceptual rule but rather a mathematical one.

Now, even with this information, there is still a very common question, which is implicit in the idea of "resolution": You might ask, "Okay, fine, but within the 20Hz-20kHz audible range, a 192kHz system samples the sound a lot more than a 44.1kHz system. Couldn't that make the 192kHz system have higher resolution - smoother, more refined, less harsh?"

This is a reasonable question at first glance, but digital sampling is not like analogue recording: once the frequency has been sampled twice, that's it - the accuracy is there and there is no possibility of "more accurate than accurate" in that sense.

Think of it this way: if a higher sample rate created a more refined, smoother, more hi-fi sound, then we would all have a huge problem on our hands with every single piece of digitally recorded music ever produced: no matter what the sample rate is, lower frequency sounds get sampled many more times than higher-frequency ones. Whether it's 44.1kHz or 192kHz or anything else, a 100Hz sound gets sampled literally 100 more times than a 10kHz sound. The lowest string on a guitar will get sampled many more times than the highest string. Male vocals get sampled more times than female vocals. The snare drum gets sampled more than the hi-hat and less than the bass drum. And on and on and on.

Obviously we do not listen to music and think that the bass is much more hi-res than the snare drum on the very same recording.

To put it another way, taking the converse approach: If you sample a 100Hz tone at 192kHz, then at 44.1kHz, and then at, say, 441Hz - in other words 1/100th of the sample rate/"resolution" of 44.1kHz - you will find that the recordings all sound identical.

Digital sampling is a binary proposition: the sample rate either is or is not frequent enough to capture a particular frequency accurately.
 
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danadam

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is recording at high samplerate let you have more harmonics to reproduce the square wav ?
Yes, the waveform will look better but it will not sound any different because all those additional harmonics will be beyond human hearing limits.
but is higher sample rate ( 96 khz 192 khz) have a better resolution than 44.1 khz to reproduce the 20hz - 20 khz bandwitch ?
No. Here's some analogy that maybe will help:

If I give you three points on a plane and tell you that they represent a shape limited to circles, then you will be able to perfectly reproduce that circle. If I give you more than three points, it will not improve precision with which you can reproduce it.

And in similar vein with digital audio. If I send to DAC 44'100 samples per second and tell it that they represent audio with bandwidth limited to 22'050 Hz, then it will be able to perfectly reproduce it. If I send more than 44'100 samples per second, it will not improve anything.
 
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