Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Suffolkhifinut]

You claim this, but you've yet to provide actual evidence of this "future disaster". What's more, you've steadfastly refused to compare it to the current environmental disaster that is every scrap yard and junkyard in existence. Your comparison is relentlessly inequitable.

What you repeatedly complain about is digging up new lanthanides and metals, but you say nothing at all about the digging up of iron ore, limestone, coal for iron making, and so on. You say nothing about heavy metals from slag dumps, sulfur pollution from coal mines, iron mines, oil spills from using a precious chemical feedstock as a gross fuel, damage from fracking, etc, all of which comes from the cult of the ICE.

That’s because we were specifically posting about EVs. Personally I believe chemical pollution is more of a danger to the planet than climate change bad as that is? If you want to expand into other forms of pollution start another thread.
However as an example male fertility rates are falling worldwide. Mainly due to heavy levels of oestrogen in our water table. Women are excreting more due to taking birth control medication, also oestrogen is widely used in detergents.

 

[DudleyDuoflush]

Times change, things move on. The town where I live used to be a coaching town. The majority of the arches and gaps through to the stables till exist. You certainly don't see any stage coaches but lots of people still own or ride horses for pleasure. The Grand Union canal is also nearby but that's only used for leisure now. Something will replace ICE vehicles in the end and EVs look like the best bet at the moment.

I'm certainly not an EV evangelist but (as I've said before) I'd rather live in a city full of EVs the ICE vehicles. Lots of issues and problems to sort out but the pace of advancement is likely to be rapid over the next couple of decades as long as we don't smother it now.

I've done over 50k in my current EV. I haven't run out of juice and it hasn't burst into flames. In fact, it hasn't had any maintenance at all apart from new tyres and a windscreen., It is far less convenient that an ICE vehicle but the trade off is that it's much cheaper to run. If it isn't cheaper to run in 2 years, I won't get another.

Saying that, you simply can't beat ICEs for the emotion they evoke. Standing in the pits at the Silverstone Classic whilst the Group Cs roar into life is something to behold.

 

[blueone]

However as an example male fertility rates are falling worldwide. Mainly due to heavy levels of oestrogen in our water table. Women are excreting more due to taking birth control medication, also oestrogen is widely used in detergents.

There isn't conclusive evidence yet that estrogen in drinking water is the primary cause of falling sperm counts. I did read an article in the UK popular press that implied this is a fact (The Guardian), but the evidence is apparently not conclusive, and the theory has been discussed for what looks like 20+ years. There are also numerous published journal concerns about the increased levels of plastic used in food packaging. The plasticizers used in plastic production that are slow to break down and are found in water worldwide. Others wonder about herbicides, pesticides, and heavy metals. Still others say male obesity rates are climbing worldwide, and being overweight and in poor aerobic health affect fertility more directly than any other reason. (Increased body fat in males has long been known to reduce free testosterone levels in their bloodstream.) I'm not qualified to judge the relative efficacy of these proposals, but it does look like the male fertility problem could have a myriad of simultaneous cause factors.

So while I tend to agree with your assertion that environmental pollution is actually a greater threat than global warming, I think we have to be careful about causation conclusions.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

There isn't conclusive evidence yet that estrogen in drinking water is the primary cause of falling sperm counts. I did read an article in the UK popular press that implied this is a fact (The Guardian), but the evidence is apparently not conclusive, and the theory has been discussed for what looks like 20+ years. There are also numerous published journal concerns about the increased levels of plastic used in food packaging. The plasticizers used in plastic production that are slow to break down and are found in water worldwide. Others wonder about herbicides, pesticides, and heavy metals. Still others say male obesity rates are climbing worldwide, and being overweight and in poor aerobic health affect fertility more directly than any other reason. (Increased body fat in males has long been known to reduce free testosterone levels in their bloodstream.) I'm not qualified to judge the relative efficacy of these proposals, but it does look like the male fertility problem could have a myriad of simultaneous cause factors.

So while I tend to agree with your assertion that environmental pollution is actually a greater threat than global warming, I think we have to be careful about causation conclusions.

A study published in 2017 conducted by Mount Sinai University concluded male fertility fell by 60% in the preceding 40 years. Many studies have been carried out on fresh water fish and sex change from male to female in some species. While there have been many studies out on the causes of Male infertility and none of them have come to a conclusion, all the other factors they specify have been around since time began for the human race. If you eliminate them what’s left?
Realise the political and social consequences of looking further into this prevent any organisation pursuing it, to rule it in or out.

 

[blueone]

A study published in 2017 conducted by Mount Sinai University concluded male fertility fell by 60% in the preceding 40 years. Many studies have been carried out on fresh water fish and sex change from male to female in some species. While there have been many studies out on the causes of Male infertility and none of them have come to a conclusion, all the other factors they specify have been around since time began for the human race. If you eliminate them what’s left?
Realise the political and social consequences of looking further into this prevent any organisation pursuing it, to rule it in or out.

Plastics, herbicides, and pesticides have not been around since time began for the human race. But global warming and cooling has.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Plastics, herbicides, and pesticides have not been around since time began for the human race. But global warming and cooling has.

The human race survived previously changes in the global climate, chemical pollution is a thing we may not survive. Can’t talk about any other country but the UK has become a less polluted place in the last 40 years. As I said female birth control is a topic no government will want to interfere with! If you look at the recent US Supreme Court ruling on Roe v Wade and the political repercussions in the US. Yet the Supreme Court never abolished the right to an abortion, they said it was unconstitutional because the US is a federation of States. Decisions on abortion were devolved down to State level.

 

[pseudoid]

Yeah, that is really incredible. So scary to think about.

Tesla will probably incorporate a simple OTA software fix ... so that you can never willingly go where no person has gone.
Not that it would be a fix for stoopid human tricks and/or taking out a family of 4 along.

 

[pseudoid]

...It is far less convenient that an ICE vehicle but...

I think your words are the first time such a statement (EV\Inconvenience) has hit my eyeballs.

 

[blueone]

The human race survived previously changes in the global climate, chemical pollution is a thing we may not survive.

On this point we mostly agree. I'm not sure about the "we may not survive" amplification of the point, but chemical pollution seems to be a more clear and present danger than warming. The challenge is that without plastic containers, fertilizers, and pesticides (and for some crops, herbicides), feeding eight billion people or so may not be practical. I think the challenge for those doubting EVs, the evidence is there, often referenced by this thread, that EVs overall pollute the environment less than ICE vehicles. And I'm ignoring the global warming issue.

 

[MediumRare]

A solitary tangential comment for @Suffolkhifinut and @blueone:

"Obesity in men is associated with infertility in numerous studies. The current trend for decline in semen parameters parallels the increasing prevalence of obesity worldwide. In addition to impaired semen quality, fertility among obese men may be affected by sexual dysfunction, endocrinopathy, aromatization activity, psychological and thermal effects, sleep apnea, leptin and minor toxins, and possibly the inflammatory and obstructive elements of epididymitis pathology. The variable degrees of certainty associated with these causes parallel the levels of supporting evidence. This search aims to shed lights on different conditions that obese men suffer from; as that makes the treatment of infertility more categorized. Material and methods A PubMed search was conducted to identify clinical and pathological mechanisms linking obesity to male infertility. Results Among the myriad of publications reviewed in this paper, impaired spermatogenesis and sexual dysfunction have been shown to drive other variables towards poor fertility potentials. The paper presented a new, detailed flow chart showing more factors and further interactions among conditions leading to infertility. Conclusions The prime hormonal defect in obese men is hypotestosteronaemia, which results in impaired spermatogenesis leading to poor fecundability. Studies have shown that most mechanisms accounting for reduced fertility potentials in overweight men are reversible."

 

[pseudoid]

fecundability

You forced me to look it up:

 

[j_j]

The Grand Union canal is also nearby but that's only used for leisure now.

I thought quite some people lived on the canal? "Continuous Cruisers" and all that.

I know one woman who is about to take delivery of a narrowboat that's 100% electric. She does have a diesel generator on board if need be, so I suppose it's actually a hybrid.

COVID has interfered horribly with its delivery, so I have hope it will launch soon. But no more "chug chug chug" along the canal.

 

[j_j]

Plastics, herbicides, and pesticides have not been around since time began for the human race. But global warming and cooling has.

This is way off topic, but there are a surprising number of herbicides and pesticides created by plants to fend off insects and in fact other plants. Sorry to bust that bubble. Plastic? Well, cellulose is a polymer.

 

[DudleyDuoflush]

I thought quite some people lived on the canal? "Continuous Cruisers" and all that.

I know one woman who is about to take delivery of a narrowboat that's 100% electric. She does have a diesel generator on board if need be, so I suppose it's actually a hybrid.

COVID has interfered horribly with its delivery, so I have hope it will launch soon. But no more "chug chug chug" along the canal.

True, there are quite a few marinas along the canal. I love the sound and smell of those engines (especially the 2 strokes) although not so much in the tunnels!

 

[RayDunzl]

I beg to differ. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37484399/porsche-mission-r-electric-future-racing/

I wonder when NASCAR will host EV 500 milers...

The pit stops should be interesting.

Don't really care, just curious, haven't followed their races for decades.

Went to a few Daytona races in the early 70's though, before Motor Homes ruined the view from the infield, and you could still sneak into the pits and wander around the garages.

 

[blueone]

This is way off topic, but there are a surprising number of herbicides and pesticides created by plants to fend off insects and in fact other plants. Sorry to bust that bubble. Plastic? Well, cellulose is a polymer.

The US EPA still says Roundup (glyphosate) is safe as a herbicide, so it's still being used agriculturally. Perhaps I'm being reactionary, but I'd rather not have it on my food or in the ground water. At least Monsanto claims they're replacing glyphosate with whatever, and I hope the whatever is better.

I know cellulose is a polymer, but that's not what's being used for most food packaging. I'm glad some bottles are now labelled "BPA free", but I wonder how many polycarbonate containers have still BPA in them. And then there's micro-plastics, which have effects I don't fully understand (does anyone?), so your bubble-bursting isn't persuasive. Sometimes when I'm looking down the supermarket aisles, even at Whole Foods, all I see is plastic with some food inside.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I wonder when NASCAR will host EV 500 milers...

The pit stops should be interesting.

Don't really care, just curious, haven't followed their races for decades.

Went to a few Daytona races in the early 70's though, before Motor Homes ruined the view from the infield, and you could still sneak into the pits and wander around the garages.

Maybe starting this year or next, other than 500 miles.

NASCAR Might Run An EV Racecar in 2023

An allegedly leaked document says NASCAR wants to take the Gen 7 Cup car into the electric power era with 1,000 hp EVs as soon as the 2023 Busch Light Clash.

www.motortrend.com

 

[pseudoid]

Discussing the subsidized EV market - while not being able to discuss the politics of it all - is problematic at best and reeks of censorship at its worst. But mumz-da-word!

This will be a PSA; so that we can agree to continue to ignore such implications, as if they lacked much substance and/or impact to the ongoing conversations in this thread.

[Mr. AB] Snookers [Mr. EF] Again
Did [Mr. AB take Mr. EF] for another ride? [Mr. EF] insisted on numerous conditions for the $7,500 electric vehicle tax credit in the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA). Now the Treasury Department is doing an end-run to let more Americans and EVs qualify.
Mr. [EF] last spring argued that the government shouldn’t subsidize Americans to buy EVs, especially since some models have waiting lists. But he later surrendered and cut a deal with [Mr. CD] to prevent the well-to-do from pocketing the tax credit and boost U.S. auto manufacturing.
The IRA’s modified $7,500 tax credit, which takes effect this year, includes new price limits ($80,000 for vans, SUVs and pickups and $55,000 for sedans) and income caps ($150,000 for singles and $300,000 for married couples). It is also restricted to EVs assembled in North America.
Half of the credit ($3,750) is tied to an increasing share of EV battery components being made in North America, and the other half to its minerals being extracted or processed in the U.S. or countries with which the U.S. has a free-trade agreement. Under the law as written, few EV models are expected to qualify for even half of the credit in coming years.
Cue the screams from the auto industry. Foreign auto makers and governments complained the law discriminated against them. European leaders have threatened to file a complaint with the World Trade Organization. U.S. auto makers warned the restrictions would dampen demand. EV start-ups selling luxury cars claimed they were jilted.
Enter Treasury, which last week issued guidance that would help automakers circumvent the restrictions by letting EVs leased to consumers qualify as “commercial clean vehicles,” which don’t include North American manufacturing, material sourcing, income or price restrictions.
The IRA’s commercial EV tax credit was intended for the likes of Amazon, UPS and contractors. But under Treasury’s interpretation, a BMW i7 (retail price: $119,300) leased to a consumer would qualify for the commercial vehicle credit whether or not it is used by a business. Ditto other EVs no matter their cost or where they’re made. All of this is a bait-and-switch on [Mr. DE].

[... and Mr./Mrs. JohnQ.Public.]
You may be able to read today's WSJ OpEd here.
Note: I have intentionally cloaked the three [players' names] in the above OpEd, to reduce chances of getting dinged for being too political.

 

[Doodski]

problematic at best and reeks of censorship at its worst. But mumz-da-word!

The Men in Black will be around soon for your transgressions.

 

[pseudoid]

The Men in Black will be around soon for your transgressions.

First time I was called a trans...
We are due for MB-IV, like the news that JohnWick/4 is in the works.