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Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

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Inner Space

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Every motoring review of EVs Iv’e read comes to the same conclusion, don’t buy one ...
Depends entirely what you want it for. I use mine 3 or 4 times a week for in-town errands, charge it from a regular 120v outlet in my garage, which gives it a shown 400-mile range at town speeds. It avoids the horrendous ICE cold-start, short-trip wear and tear, and the awful in-town mpg. I love mine.
 

DudleyDuoflush

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There was a review of an EV in one of the papers last week and the motoring journalist was less than impressed. He didn’t have a home charger and spent some time trying to locate a charging point, ended up at Tesco. Tried to charge his car got nowhere fortunately there were other EV owners who helped. He went into Tesco and walked around for twenty minutes got bored and went back to the car and the range had increased by 2 miles. Every motoring review of EVs Iv’e read comes to the same conclusion, don’t buy one, including Guy Martin’s Channel 4 program, eventually he ended up finding a fast charger after going many miles off route and it cost £40.
Depends very much on your use case at the moment. My EV works great for me as I can charge at home and it saves me a massive amount in company car tax. I don't think an EV makes much sense as a private purchase unless you've got a long commute and can cover the charge needed in the cheap rate period. I've also battled and lost with a number of public chargers as Suffolkhifiniut says.

I've driven mine 26k miles in the first year and one thing to consider is that I've had zero maintenance. I've also driven across Spain with no issues although it did add about 2 hours to an 8 hour drive. All in all I really like my EV but if was my money - probably not.
 

anmpr1

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When the push for electric cars started, several years ago, my initial question was not about the cars, their mileage, practicality, or any of that. It was about the transition from gasoline at the pump to electrons from a cord, and what that will do to government revenue secondary to a drop in fuel taxes?

Now, with rebates, government 'loses money' with electric cars (ie, no tax revenue other than standard vehicle licensing). If the volume of electric cars on the road increases, then my guess (knowing how tax policy tends to work) is that state and federal governments will devise plans to 'make up' lost revenue. Possibilities are mileage surcharges, electric use surcharges, ending of rebates and so on. But anyone's guess is as good as mine.

This may have been commented on, but I admit to coming to the thread late.
 

DudleyDuoflush

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When the push for electric cars started, several years ago, my initial question was not about the cars, their mileage, practicality, or any of that. It was about the transition from gasoline at the pump to electrons from a cord, and what that will do to government revenue secondary to a drop in fuel taxes?

Now, with rebates, government 'loses money' with electric cars (ie, no tax revenue other than standard vehicle licensing). If the volume of electric cars on the road increases, then my guess (knowing how tax policy tends to work) is that state and federal governments will devise plans to 'make up' lost revenue. Possibilities are mileage surcharges, electric use surcharges, ending of rebates and so on. But anyone's guess is as good as mine.

This may have been commented on, but I admit to coming to the thread late.
I think you're right. In the UK at least I think it's the sweet spot as far as EV taxation goes. It can't last.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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Depends entirely what you want it for. I use mine 3 or 4 times a week for in-town errands, charge it from a regular 120v outlet in my garage, which gives it a shown 400-mile range at town speeds. It avoids the horrendous ICE cold-start, short-trip wear and tear, and the awful in-town mpg. I love mine.
Agree for short journeys they work well, as an overall means of transport including long journeys not too good. My concerns are on safety and environmental grounds.
 

anmpr1

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Agree for short journeys they work well...
When I stayed in Shenzhen for a while, public transportation was so good and ubiquitous that a personal car was not needed, at least from a practical transportation solution. Even travel between cities on high speed rail was first rate. I guess any large city would be similar, but the transportation in China was clean, modern and safe. You can't say that about something like Marta, in Atlanta, or some of the NYC subways, or other large city services, so a personal car is a plus in those kinds of places.

However, if you live in the country or even the suburbs, it has to be different. Then, trips are longer, by necessity. If you are a travelling salesman (is that still an occupation?), then an electric car might never be the thing. I've thought that about 500 miles between recharges would be the goal. If the average electric car could get 500 'honest' miles on a charge, most people would probably think that to be enough, for practical day to day use.
 

Old Listener

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Not that simple when you read the link, EV fires are more serious. If you take into account many of the ICE vehicles are likely to be much older with a number of them would be poorly maintained. EVs are fairly new on the market and because of their cost will still be under warranty. The figures for Hybrids are interesting they combine features of both ICE and EV technology, their fire risk is much higher. The difference between them and ICE vehicles is the batteries, again vehicle age is a factor Hybrids have been around for some time and have entered the market were cost is important and servicing may take a back seat.
Then there is the serious long term risk described in the article, if an EV catches fire reignition is a serious problem, think the Swiss fire brigade who attended Richard Hammond’s crash refused to move the vehicle for several days. Imagine this in a busy city centre and the chaos it would cause. Then the fire service need specialist training and even if they get it the disruption time scale will be the same. Another environmental catastrophe on the way?
I can imagine a similar comment made in the early days of ICE cars. Somehow, those frightening problems were addressed and it is possible that the challenges that EVs pose will be adequately addressed too.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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I can imagine a similar comment made in the early days of ICE cars. Somehow, those frightening problems were addressed and it is possible that the challenges that EVs pose will be adequately addressed too.
Hope you’re right, petrol is as flammable now as it was then, design changes made to the fuel system on vehicles now makes the chance of fire less likely. The spontaneous flammable nature of lithium based batteries will always be there. Once ICE fuels are used they are no longer flammable, the danger from used EV batteries will be there until they are dismantled. Assuming they are sent to large scale recycling centres, I wouldn’t want to be within miles of it.
 

Martin

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I'm coming off a Volvo XC-90 lease in May. It's worth well over our purchase option price. I'm buying it and holding onto it as a trade in down the road. I have a $1,000 deposit down on this Rivian R1S.
View attachment 187819

I'm not an environmentalist by any stretch of the imagination; I'm just a nerd and like the tech. EV performance is a huge incentive for me. Looking at the Fisker Ocean, too, but I like the size of the R1S.

One thing I love about the town I live in is that all our garbage and recyclables go to a power plant that burns garbage. It is sorted and anything that cannot be recycled is burned for power. The resulting ash is trucked to the landfill. These types of power plants should be everywhere.

Martin

Rivian just jacked up the price of my preordered R1S from $75,500 to $97,500. I cancelled and got my $1,000 deposit back. Looking at the Fisker Ocean, Ford Mustang Mach E and Hyundai Ionic 5/Kia EV6 but considering the current insane automotive marketplace with selling prices soemtimes well over MSRP we'll probably keep our XC-90 for several more years.

Martin
 

Ken1951

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Rivian just jacked up the price of my preordered R1S from $75,500 to $97,500. I cancelled and got my $1,000 deposit back. Looking at the Fisker Ocean, Ford Mustang Mach E and Hyundai Ionic 5/Kia EV6 but considering the current insane automotive marketplace with selling prices soemtimes well over MSRP we'll probably keep our XC-90 for several more years.

Martin
Ouch! That's some price increase. I was in the car business from 1983 - 1996. For quite a while we had an ADM on certain models. Fieros and Grand Ams when they first came out, all Hondas in varying amounts based on model, trim level, or color. Definitely would not want to be in the market for a car at the moment that's for sure.
 

Blumlein 88

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Hope you’re right, petrol is as flammable now as it was then, design changes made to the fuel system on vehicles now makes the chance of fire less likely. The spontaneous flammable nature of lithium based batteries will always be there. Once ICE fuels are used they are no longer flammable, the danger from used EV batteries will be there until they are dismantled. Assuming they are sent to large scale recycling centres, I wouldn’t want to be within miles of it.
I don't think your concerns amount to much. Environmentally they are plain better all angles considered. Despite concerns raised on the envrironmental point this is an answered question and EVs will be getting even better as we get more experience with making and recycling them.

They can catch fire in a different way and need handling differently.They appear to catch fire less often than other cars, and those with driver's assist seems less likely to crash in the first place. The safety will improve further still on them. Firefighters are being trained in how they need to handle this type fire. In case you don't know there are hundreds of different materials firemen need training on how to handle. So far the main takeaway from EV batteries is the fire will need copious amounts of water for longer periods of time, and must be watched for hours. Scanning with thermal imaging after the fire is 'out' is also a good idea.
 

JJB70

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I am enjoying life without a car of any kind. It depends on where you live and personal circumstances, but living car free is entirely possible with no sacrifice for many people.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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Not your answer but there is probably some special handling instructions to first responders for EVs in traffic accidents, as there may be some potential for HV electric shock.
There will need to be special training as the motors run on 480 volts. Looked at a BMW i3 a few years ago and the main reason I didn’t buy it was because our local BMW dealer couldn’t service it, the nearest BMW service centre was 75 miles away. It had all the extras needed too make it a good choice, fast charge and a small petrol engine range extender. Things have moved on since then and the EV support network is much better.
An Edit in response to previous posts on EV reliability? Today ‘Which’ a well regarded consumer rights organisation published the results of a reliability survey on cars up to 4 years old. EV’s came out the worst with 31% of owners reporting faults, 29% of diesel car owners reported faults while for petrol cars the figure is 19%.
 
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Spocko

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Starbucks begin rolling out chargers at their locations (between Denver & Seattle)

107030603-1647352136881-297120_Starbucks_C40.jpg



 

Spocko

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There will need to be special training as the motors run on 480 volts. Looked at a BMW i3 a few years ago and the main reason I didn’t buy it was because our local BMW dealer couldn’t service it, the nearest BMW service centre was 75 miles away. It had all the extras needed too make it a good choice, fast charge and a small petrol engine range extender. Things have moved on since then and the EV support network is much better.
An Edit in response to previous posts on EV reliability? Today ‘Which’ a well regarded consumer rights organisation published the results of a reliability survey on cars up to 4 years old. EV’s came out the worst with 31% of owners reporting faults, 29% of diesel car owners reported faults while for petrol cars the figure is 19%.
The most relevant part of the article: "But the most common faults with electric vehicles, according to the drivers surveyed, were software issues, not motor or battery problems." This is a very sensational title misrepresenting what "reliability" means in most people's minds. When I say EVs are not reliable, the first thing you think of is whether the car works at all to take you from Point A to Point B not bad software UI that makes it difficult to turn on the A/C or adjust the navigation end point. And its conclusion completely lacks any understanding of the difference between "reliability" and "user friendliness": "With EVs in particular, our research shows a premium price tag does not necessarily mean a reliable vehicle, so we would always encourage drivers to do their research ahead of such a significant purchase to see which cars and brands they can trust."

I believe early software issues are completely understandable as software updates can take care of these issues over time whereas with so many moving parts, ICE has many mechanical points of failure over time when heat, pressure and age destroys seals that significantly cost more to monitor and repair than regular FREE software updates. It's like saying "I hate my EV because the map GPS broke and I can never find the climate control," and then including this in the survey as part of reliability versus cars with issues like "oil leak", "engine failure", etc.

Most importantly, EV cars will save you the accumulated cost of oil changes, fluid replacement, brake replacement etc. after 4 years. This survey was limited to ownership in the first 4 years (EVs from 2018 don't compare to the EV6 in 2022) which is clearly designed to put non EV cars in the best possible light. It's like saying Alfa Romeo is as good as a Lexus because we surveyd people's experiences in the first 4 days of ownership!
 
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pseudoid

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I believe early software issues are completely understandable
Oh, really?
I have big issues w/the understandabitily and acceptability of mediocrity. Making excuses for them is even worse.
2022 J.D. Power Survey calls out "Infotainment System Remains as the Top Source of Complaints" (as w/previous last 6+ years).
"Smartphone Connectivity Now Most Common Problem Cited by New-Vehicle Owners", J.D. Power Finds
"New-vehicle quality improves 2% from 2020" according to the J.D. Power 2021 U.S. Initial Quality Study (IQS)
1647369251000.png

To the consternation of the American dealership association and adding hardship to poor consumers, both GM and Ford are reconsidering their old business-model of selling and servicing their fleet via a "dealer network"... They are trying to model their new formula which started with Tesla but look where Tesla is in this above rating graph: Is this what acceptability is like?
Besides the EVs being forced down the throats of consumers as their salvation from existential crisis caused by carbon, I think I will stick with ICE that I already offset its :rolleyes: carbon foot-print.
 

Blumlein 88

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Oh, really?
I have big issues w/the understandabitily and acceptability of mediocrity. Making excuses for them is even worse.
2022 J.D. Power Survey calls out "Infotainment System Remains as the Top Source of Complaints" (as w/previous last 6+ years).
"Smartphone Connectivity Now Most Common Problem Cited by New-Vehicle Owners", J.D. Power Finds
"New-vehicle quality improves 2% from 2020" according to the J.D. Power 2021 U.S. Initial Quality Study (IQS)
View attachment 192678
To the consternation of the American dealership association and adding hardship to poor consumers, both GM and Ford are reconsidering their old business-model of selling and servicing their fleet via a "dealer network"... They are trying to model their new formula which started with Tesla but look where Tesla is in this above rating graph: Is this what acceptability is like?
Besides the EVs being forced down the throats of consumers as their salvation from existential crisis caused by carbon, I think I will stick with ICE that I already offset its :rolleyes: carbon foot-print.
On your list a misaligned door gets counted as one and so does a failure to start. Guess which is more of a problem?
 

jbags

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We bought a plug in Toyota Hybrid RAV4 last year.

The 40 mile commute using electricity for charging the battery at home costs $2.13.
The same commute, using the California price for gasoline costs $5.80.

Charging the battery at home is much easier than a trip to the gas station.
Refining oil into gasoline and distributing it all over is not as efficient as delivery of electricity.

With the time of use pricing of electricity, the battery is charged between midnight and 4AM when electric generation is ample.

So far this has been a very good move for my family.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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The most relevant part of the article: "But the most common faults with electric vehicles, according to the drivers surveyed, were software issues, not motor or battery problems." This is a very sensational title misrepresenting what "reliability" means in most people's minds. When I say EVs are not reliable, the first thing you think of is whether the car works at all to take you from Point A to Point B not bad software UI that makes it difficult to turn on the A/C or adjust the navigation end point. And its conclusion completely lacks any understanding of the difference between "reliability" and "user friendliness": "With EVs in particular, our research shows a premium price tag does not necessarily mean a reliable vehicle, so we would always encourage drivers to do their research ahead of such a significant purchase to see which cars and brands they can trust."

I believe early software issues are completely understandable as software updates can take care of these issues over time whereas with so many moving parts, ICE has many mechanical points of failure over time when heat, pressure and age destroys seals that significantly cost more to monitor and repair than regular FREE software updates. It's like saying "I hate my EV because the map GPS broke and I can never find the climate control," and then including this in the survey as part of reliability versus cars with issues like "oil leak", "engine failure", etc.

Most importantly, EV cars will save you the accumulated cost of oil changes, fluid replacement, brake replacement etc. after 4 years. This survey was limited to ownership in the first 4 years (EVs from 2018 don't compare to the EV6 in 2022) which is clearly designed to put non EV cars in the best possible light. It's like saying Alfa Romeo is as good as a Lexus because we surveyd people's experiences in the first 4 days of ownership!
Have no problem accepting we need to tackle motor vehicle pollution, however were they are needed the most is were they are least likely to be. In City centres too many high rise building and there will never be enough access to charging points. Plus our electrical transmission and distribution system can’t possibly cope with the extra load.
A better alternative is the shared taxi scheme operating in many parts of the World. Lived in Libya for over 25 years and they had two types of Taxi provision, black and whites were for booking as you do here, the yellow and whites were licensed to operate on a single bus route. The charge was the same wherever you got on or off. If you saw one approaching you would try to flag it down, if it was full it would carry on past. Were we live large double decker diesel buses trundle by with one or two people on board. Yellow and white EV taxis in cities would provide cheap and practical transport at little cost to the public or the environment.
 
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