Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[j_j]

The difficult bit is the "fuel tank".
It is big heavy and expensive. I am not sufficiently expert on its manufacture to make an informed judgement on whether overall an EV is "worse" to manufacture than an IC engined car. I have seen loads of angry anti EV posts over recent years but not one was a convincing technical document so far and most look like propaganda or idiotic conspiracy theories - the interenet is good at spreading them.

Likewise. The one advantage of a liquid hydrocarbon fuel is its energy density. And that's it. The one advantage. Now, carbon emissions, ozone, NOx, pollution from partially burnt fuel, toxic organics, and appalling efficiency are the disadvantages. Any motor has an optimum speed to run at. ICE's through a transmission can never do that, unless you consider some of the variable ratio transmissions out there, nearly all of which have loss inside their mechanism.

For its time a Prius wasn't a bad design, but why do you think the biggest motors and engines out there (trains, ships) use an ICE or still occasionally an ECE to DRIVE A GENERATOR. There is a reason.

For in town, there is zero reason to reject plug-in electrics, except for the infrastructure we are rapidly adding in the smarter parts of the country.
For long distance, it is still somewhat hard to reject the convenience of a 5 minute fill-up while you visit the head, vs. a 45 minute recharge. But that will change, just not yet.

 

[nerdstrike]

I am not sufficiently expert on its manufacture to make an informed judgement on whether overall an EV is "worse" to manufacture than an IC engined car

YouTube channel Engineering Explained had a go at collecting scholarly info on lifetime emissions. His conclusion was that when exchanging a "typical" US car for an electric vehicle of similar utility you would break even on total emissions after 5 years or so. From then on the EV is the winner. The crossing point is sooner if you drive an inefficient car with many cylinders, or drive a lot of miles.

It can only ever be a rough estimate as many manufacturers and suppliers are involved in the making of any complex machine. If we can get a bit closer to parity on weight and a more mature charging infrastructure it should become a no-brainer over the course of a decade or so.

 

[Frank Dernie]

For long distance, it is still somewhat hard to reject the convenience of a 5 minute fill-up while you visit the head, vs. a 45 minute recharge. But that will change, just not yet.

The new vehicles with 800V architecture charge relatively quickly. Whilst it is psycologically difficult for some people to run their battery down to 5% charge the charging rate for a warm battery from 5% to 60% is pretty impressive already on these cars, but of course both charging stations and more manufacturers need to adopt 800V. Here in the UK most (maybe all) non-Tesla charging stations are 800V already.

Kia, Hyundai, Porsche use 800V in at least some models, maybe others I don't know about.
Hyundai can charge at up to 220 kW and Porsche 265kW peak, the limit is they start to tail off the rate at about 65% battery so in time terms to optimum for a longer journey is to charge from 5% to 80% while taking a comfort break of 20 mins or so. 60 miles worth of 'leccy takes about 5 mins. So with forethought and accepting a different approach to re-fuelling (I may be too old for that, we will see) I think my EV, when it arrives, will be fine for long journeys and much, much better for regular use.

Edit, I don't know about elsewhere but here in the UK you need to stay with your car whilst re-fuelling, so if I stop and need the toilet and something to eat I have to fill up first, or on leaving the stop, which often means moving the car to a different car park. With an EV one arrives, plugs in then goes to the facilities so even if the actual "re-fuel" takes longer the elapsed time of the stop may well not be.

 

[JJB70]

If I was to buy another car ( which I really hope I won't) it would be an EV, as they're just so much nicer to drive. However in a city state with world class public transport I have no reason to buy a car (and doing so is crazily expensive). The local air quality benefits of EVs are inarguable, zero tail pipe emissions, and regenerative braking also slashes brake dust. For GHG emissions it is not as absolute but even in countries reliant on thermal power plant, those power plants will in most cases operate at much better thermal efficiency than automotive ICE engines.
That said, I do share some of the cynicism about virtue signalling. I won't claim to be a virtuous type as I still (reluctantly) fly, I still eat some meat (though an awful lot less than I used to) and I work in an industry still reliant on fossil fuels (shipping) but I do get why people get a bit jaded by some of the 'do as I say, not as I do' stuff.

 

[Frank Dernie]

But none are zero emissions.
Folks just want to ignore the emissions created by the various electrical generating methods.
It's all a con game for a large varieties of reasons.

True about emissions but IMO the con game is all the propaganda being encouraged by the heaviliy subsidised coal and oil companies.
Hydro and coal or gas fired power stations are mega expensive to build and very bad for the environment.
Solar and wind power are relatively cheap and quick to build, use far less polluting raw materials and then produce low cost power with zero emissions.

Lobbying and propaganda works.

 

[JJB70]

For its time a Prius wasn't a bad design, but why do you think the biggest motors and engines out there (trains, ships) use an ICE or still occasionally an ECE to DRIVE A GENERATOR. There is a reason.

Large ocean going cargo ships, which is the type of ship using the largest engines, still tend to use direct drive slow speed two stroke engines. The most efficient way to utilise an internal combustion engine in a ship is a fixed pitch propeller directly coupled to a slow speed engine. It's common to have a power take off driving a shaft generator and waste heat recovery (including generating steam for steam turbine generators) is normal practice.
Diesel electric is common in cruise ships and specialist ships like offshore support vessels where load profiles are much more variable and where auxiliary loads are very high.

 

[samsa]

Any motor has an optimum speed to run at. ICE's through a transmission can never do that, unless you consider some of the variable ratio transmissions out there, nearly all of which have loss inside their mechanism.

And that's actually the most revelatory part of the experience of driving an EV: constant available torque from 0 to v_{max}. If you're used to an ICE vehicle, the instant (and sustained) response, when you step on the accelerator, will just blow your mind. Hard to articulate how different it feels. But, once you've experienced it, your inevitable conclusion is that ICE vehicles are for chumps.

 

[JJB70]

True about emissions but IMO the con game is all the propaganda being encouraged by the heaviliy subsidised coal and oil companies.
Hydro and coal or gas fired power stations are mega expensive to build and very bad for the environment.
Solar and wind power are relatively cheap and quick to build, use far less polluting raw materials and then produce low cost power with zero emissions.

Lobbying and propaganda works.

That's not entirely correct. I used to work in plant origination as a strategic development engineer for one of the big electricity companies and at that time the cheapest and quickest way to get MW onto the grid by a long way were combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT) plants. They're cheap to buy, can be built very quickly and and are easy to dispose of at end of life ( unlike coal plants). Not the best environmental solution for sure but they are a low cost, easy one (in so far as any means of generating a lot of MW can de described as low cost).

 

[EJ3]

I'd go further and say that it's a problem (to a greater or lesser extent) for every manufactured product.

Unless @EJ3 wants to claim that manufacturing EVs is somehow worse for the environment than manufacturing ICE vehicles — a proposition that is highly dubious for the reasons you stated, among others — then I don't know what the hell his point is.

Not saying it's worse, saying that the supply chain of manufacturing (weather it's the aluminum, cobalt, plastic, etc) to manufacture a vehicle should be looked at for the production process & end of life process to reduce environmental damage, weather ICE or electric vehicles.

 

[Bob from Florida]

No matter which way you go - fossil fuels, nuclear, hydroelectric, wind, solar, geothermal, etc - you are altering the balance of the planet. Wind power for example - what happens to the weather and climate when you disrupt natural wind flow by pulling energy out for electricity generation? I get it when it comes to choosing energy sources that ”disrupt” in the least objectionable way. People forget - there is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

[Spkrdctr]

No matter which way you go - fossil fuels, nuclear, hydroelectric, wind, solar, geothermal, etc - you are altering the balance of the planet. Wind power for example - what happens to the weather and climate when you disrupt natural wind flow by pulling energy out for electricity generation? I get it when it comes to choosing energy sources that ”disrupt” in the least objectionable way. People forget - there is no such thing as a free lunch.

Having worked many years in a setting with a break room refrigerator to store your lunch in, I can say the only free lunch was the one the "Food Thieves" from the fridge got. Oh and yes, they are the worst sort of vermin. We caught one food thief and she never lived it down for years.

 

[Ken1951]

As we have solar panels and send a fair bit of power back to the grid, I imagine that some sort of plug-in hybrid would work for us. Most of our driving is local, rarely more than 40 miles one-way. But with both sons living 250 or so miles away as well as liking to take other trips for birding and other visits, I can't see going to a pure EV. Not much infrastructure available at this point down here in southwest VA.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

As we have solar panels and send a fair bit of power back to the grid, I imagine that some sort of plug-in hybrid would work for us. Most of our driving is local, rarely more than 40 miles one-way. But with both sons living 250 or so miles away as well as liking to take other trips for birding and other visits, I can't see going to a pure EV. Not much infrastructure available at this point down here in southwest VA.

The manufacturers’ claimed EV range is not bourn out in real World driving conditions + it’s recommended you only charge up to 80% of battery capacity, attempting to charge over this shortens battery life. Are EV’s over the long term going to be an environmental disaster? if they replace other fuel types of vehicle, they will be on our roads in the billions. When they get old and go down in price, essential maintenance may not be carried out. The thought of ‘do it yourself mechanics‘ working on vehicles using 480 motors and with ageing batteries is worrying. Then the number of recycling factories spewing out pollution or will we just dump them in the Third World like we do with so much of our junk now?

 

[Doodski]

The manufacturers’ claimed EV range is not bourn out in real World driving conditions + it’s recommended you only charge up to 80% of battery capacity, attempting to charge over this shortens battery life. Are EV’s over the long term going to be an environmental disaster? if they replace other fuel types of vehicle, they will be on our roads in the billions. When they get old and go down in price, essential maintenance may not be carried out. The thought of ‘do it yourself mechanics‘ working on vehicles using 480 motors and with ageing batteries is worrying. Then the number of recycling factories spewing out pollution or will we just dump them in the Third World like we do with so much of our junk now?

After looking at that flaming tesla in Vancouver I would not want to sit in the back of a 2 door electric vehicle. Too difficult to escape in case of a battery flameout or electrical short creating smoke and flames. Then as you say some backyard mechanic wrenching on high current DC power would be a recipe for disaster.

 

[Sal1950]

One thing I can promise y'all,
No one's ever gonna write a song about an EV,
They got no soul.
Just spend approx $10k doing a full restore on my 2006 Ram 1500 pickup and short of a catastrophic accident I'll
go to the grave enjoying the immersive driving experience of it's IC 6 speed stick driveline.
Turn this one up LOUD

 

[Frank Dernie]

The manufacturers’ claimed EV range is not bourn out in real World driving conditions + it’s recommended you only charge up to 80% of battery capacity, attempting to charge over this shortens battery life. Are EV’s over the long term going to be an environmental disaster? if they replace other fuel types of vehicle, they will be on our roads in the billions. When they get old and go down in price, essential maintenance may not be carried out. The thought of ‘do it yourself mechanics‘ working on vehicles using 480 motors and with ageing batteries is worrying. Then the number of recycling factories spewing out pollution or will we just dump them in the Third World like we do with so much of our junk now?

Wow you are a pessimist!.

It is only recommended to charge to 85% if you are not using the car much, 100% is fine and obvious for a long run, it is more how low do you have the balls to run the battery which limits range in practical terms and how close to 100% you are wanting to charge each time on a very long run.
I stop every 200 miles or so to let my dog stretch his legs and have a pee and that is fine for both range and charging time for the next leg. My typical dog walk and cup of tea take longer than I need for a charge So charging time is not a limitation.

Electric motors are so much simpler than IC engines any garage that does not get into battery servicing will go out of business IMO. The hybrid batteries had people up in arms about them many years ago but my first hybrid is still being used daily by my daughter after 17 years of the original traction battery which is still fine, so it turned out to be a load of bollox.

Did you mean to write billions or was it a typo? If you meant billions your grasp on vehicle reality is somewhat questionable I’m afraid.

 

[Frank Dernie]

After looking at that flaming tesla in Vancouver I would not want to sit in the back of a 2 door electric vehicle. Too difficult to escape in case of a battery flameout or electrical short creating smoke and flames. Then as you say some backyard mechanic wrenching on high current DC power would be a recipe for disaster.

I would be concerned about going in a Tesla given the fire stories. How frequent are they and does any other make have a (genuine) record of fires?
There have been none reported on Taycan forums, and since forums are full of people who have found them when they have a problem one could be sure they would have been if there had been any.

 

[Vacceo]

One thing I can promise y'all,
No one's ever gonna write a song about an EV,
They got no soul.
Just spend approx $10k doing a full restore on my 2006 Ram 1500 pickup and short of a catastrophic accident I'll
go to the grave enjoying the immersive driving experience of it's IC 6 speed stick driveline.
Turn this one up LOUD

You never know...

What is true is that songs like Kyuss´ Gardenia will not make much sense anymore:

"Hear a purrin' motor
And she's a-burnin' fuel"

 

[samsa]

I would be concerned about going in a Tesla given the fire stories.

That's ridiculous.

In 2018, there were 212,500 vehicle fires in the US. Granted EVs are a small percentage of the total number of vehicles on the road, but the number of EV fires/year can be counted on your fingers. You are vastly more likely to burn to a crisp riding in an ICE vehicle than in an EV.

How frequent are they and does any other make have a (genuine) record of fires?
There have been none reported on Taycan forums,

Really?

and since forums are full of people who have found them when they have a problem one could be sure they would have been if there had been any.

Have you not heard of the Chevy Bolt?

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Wow you are a pessimist!.

It is only recommended to charge to 85% if you are not using the car much, 100% is fine and obvious for a long run, it is more how low do you have the balls to run the battery which limits range in practical terms and how close to 100% you are wanting to charge each time on a very long run.
I stop every 200 miles or so to let my dog stretch his legs and have a pee and that is fine for both range and charging time for the next leg. My typical dog walk and cup of tea take longer than I need for a charge So charging time is not a limitation.

Electric motors are so much simpler than IC engines any garage that does not get into battery servicing will go out of business IMO. The hybrid batteries had people up in arms about them many years ago but my first hybrid is still being used daily by my daughter after 17 years of the original traction battery which is still fine, so it turned out to be a load of bollox.

Did you mean to write billions or was it a typo? If you meant billions your grasp on vehicle reality is somewhat questionable I’m afraid.

According to manufacturers the maximum recommended charge is 80%. Regarding the 200 mile range you quote, alright most of the time. Today I drove 220 miles one way staying somewhere without charging points, impossible with an EV.
How many vehicles are on the roads Worldwide today and demand is increasing? By 2030 in the UK the only new cars on sale will be EVs, billions wasn’t a typo but a realistic estimate of EV’s on the road before 2050.