Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Suffolkhifinut]

yup, it is true that mass matters and not irrelevant. Velocity just matters more.
We're in violent agreement (as they say).

Speaking of which, you've doubtless seen this video -- there are other factors that, practically speaking, might matter even more than mass...

although, in fairness, I don't know offhand the relative masses of these two GM vehicles.

How dare they do that to a Bel Air! In a previous post I pointed out you can’t expect old vehicles to be as safe as modern vehicles.

 

[j_j]

We had a 59 Biscayne when I was growing up, glad we didn't hit anything with it!

So did we, and agreed. Also, that trunk was so low in the middle that was kind of nuts, wasn't it?

 

[bothu]

Christian von Koenigsegg talk about future electric car motors.
Click on the subtitle button to get English text.

 

[Doodski]

Transport Canada and USA investigating after Tesla burst into flames in Vancouver.​

videoPlayer

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[Sal1950]

The Chevy Bolt is what I would buy if I was in the market for a zero-emissions vehicle. Here is the USA price for a semi-loaded car. I consider a car to be a poor investment so I like the economy of this model

But none are zero emissions.
Folks just want to ignore the emissions created by the various electrical generating methods.
It's all a con game for a large varieties of reasons.

 

[Doodski]

But none are zero emissions.
Folks just want to ignore the emissions created by the various electrical generating methods.
It's all a con game for a large varieties of reasons.

The electrification of vehicles does create some questions and with electrification comes other issues we don't have with ICE vehicles. Like rare earths supply and it's ethical supply, where is all this electricity coming from? and is the price going to come down?

 

[EJ3]

This 1957 Chevrolet Project X Represents the Electrifying Future of Hot Rods​

Can there be an electric Hot Rod? This 1957 Chevrolet Project X answers the question​

by Dim Angelov, on November 13, 2021, 06:00 LISTEN 04:33
Without a doubt, the 2021 SEMA Show introduces some interesting ideas of what the future of modified cars could look like. It seems that, for better or worse, electrification will play a major role in future builds, as demand for crate electric motors is at its highest. Among the many SEMA entries, this year is a 1957 Chevrolet, dubbed Project X.

Read More:​

[ATTACH type="full" alt="This 1957 Chevrolet Project X Represents the Electrifying Future of Hot Rods
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The unlikely Hot Rod is a collaboration between Chevrolet Performance, MotorTrend, and Cagnazzi Racing. The idea behind it is to prove that “the electric future of driving doesn’t require leaving the past behind”. The 1957 Chevy was bought for $250, back in 1965 and has served as a testbed for more than five decades, as editors from MotorTrend’s Hot Rod used it to test new products, technologies, and trends.
Douglas Glad, group content director, MotorTrend Group said that “Project X has always served the car community by pushing the envelope with groundbreaking technologies. As the auto industry shifts rapidly toward electric vehicles, this Project X build is just the latest in its celebrated legacy of adapting hot rodding to the powerful technology of tomorrow”.
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Over the years, the classic American coupe has been powered by a variety of different powertrains, including inline-sixes and a bunch of V-8 engines that have been carbureted, fuel-injected, and supercharged. Thanks to Cagnazzi Racing, the latest incarnation of the 1957 Chevy has dropped the supercharged LSX V-8 for an electric setup that makes 340 horsepower (253 kilowatts) and 330 pound-feet (447 Nm).

While the ditching of the LSX V-8 might, initially, put off a lot of enthusiasts, Prashant Ahire – eCrate regional chief engineer says “The reinvention of Project X is a reminder that our vision for a world with zero emissions includes classics like the Tri-Five Chevys. As General Motors rolls out its trailblazing EV technology, Chevrolet Performance plans to offer EV propulsion solutions for enthusiasts looking to modernize their project cars”.
We have already seen a strong current of iconic classic cars, reimagined as EVs, while retaining the classic aesthetics. Among them are the Porsche 964 by Everrati, Alfa Romeo Giulia Totem Electric GT, or Ferrari 308 GTE by Electric GT. And while the current demand for electric crate motors speaks louder than any words, it remains to be seen whether or not the trend will last.
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As for the 1957 Chevy’s energy source, that comes from a 400-volt proof-of-concept lithium-ion battery stores 30 kilowatt-hours of electricity. While not very impressive, this provides enough range for a weekend cruise. The battery pack is being evaluated for potential use as a next-generation Chevrolet Performance product and is based around a modular concept that allows customers to scale the battery pack capacity, based on their needs – range, price, packaging, and weight.
On top of that, the concept features a quick-change differential that allows for an adjustable final drive, depending on needs. A shorter final drive improves acceleration, while a taller gear favors range.
As part of the EV conversion, Cagnazzi Racing had to switch to an electric brake booster and electrohydraulic power steering. But not everything on Project X was installed recently. Although modified, the front suspension, which comes from a C6 Corvette was installed back in 2007. Since EVs do not need exhaust systems, the 57’ Chevy has been lowered by about 2.0 inches (50.8 mm).
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Last but not least, the front and rear springs have been softened up a bit, in response to the change in weight distribution. Unlike the previous powertrain, the electric setup puts more weight on the rear axle of the car.
The people at Cagnazzi Racing have deep roots in internal combustion racing engines, but still, acknowledge electrification as the next step in hot-rodding. With Project X, the goal was “to maintain the look and integrity of the classic hot rod, while modernizing the propulsion technology”. This particular 1957 Chevrolet has worn the same aesthetics for decades, which in itself is a great homage to classic hot rods.

Dim Angelov

Born in 1992, I come from a family of motoring enthusiasts. My passion for cars was awoken at the age of six, when I saw a Lamborghini Diablo SV in a magazine. After high school I earned a master’s degree in marketing and a Master of Arts in Media and Communications. Over the years, I’ve practiced and become skilled in precision driving and to date have test driven more than 250 cars across the globe. Over the years, I’ve picked up basic mechanical knowledge and have even taken part in the restoration of a 1964 Jaguar E-Type and an Alfa Romeo Giulia Sprint. Lately, I’ve taken a fancy to automotive photography, and while modern cars are my primary passion, I also have a love for Asian Martial Arts, swimming, war history, craft beer, historical weapons, and car restoration. In time, I plan my own classic car restoration and hope to earn my racing certificate, after which I expect to establish my own racing team. Read full bio
ABOUT THE AUTHOR

 

[samsa]

Folks just want to ignore the emissions created by the various electrical generating methods.

Here in Texas, 31% of electricity production is "green" (nuclear+wind+solar+...), 52% is natural gas and 17% is coal+oil [2020 figures]. So any switch from gasoline-powered to electric vehicles is a net reduction (albeit not elimination) of carbon emissions.

Our wind generation capacity has been growing at an average rate of 12.6%/year over the past decade, so those numbers will continue to improve.

I subscribe to Austin Energy's "Green Choice" program, so that "nominally" all of my electricity (including the electricity used to charge my Tesla) is wind-generated. Of course, that's just "nominally" ....

 

[EJ3]

Here in Texas, 31% of electricity production is "green" (nuclear+wind+solar+...), 52% is natural gas and 17% is coal+oil [2020 figures]. So any switch from gasoline-powered to electric vehicles is a net reduction (albeit not elimination) of carbon emissions.

Our wind generation capacity has been growing at an average rate of 12.6%/year over the past decade, so those numbers will continue to improve.

I subscribe to Austin Energy's "Green Choice" program, so that "nominally" all of my electricity (including the electricity used to charge my Tesla) is wind-generated. Of course, that's just "nominally" ....

And what the Tesla is made of? What about damage to the environment from building it to begin with & the disposal at end of life for the Tesla product? Just wondering how those things factor in?

 

[Head_Unit]

But none are zero emissions.
Folks just want to ignore the emissions created by the various electrical generating methods.
It's all a con game for a large varieties of reasons.

That is correct about the emissions, should be called "zero TAILPIPE emissions" but that horse has sailed. But bettery cars don't burn excess fossil fuels while sitting in traffic, or running a heater/AC while waiting to pick somebody up. Nor should their emissions increase drastically over time, unlike internal combustion cars whose myriad feedback sensors degrade, hence puking out all manner of toxins when the accelerator is stabbed. And the wah wah wah crying about battery replacement being crazy expensive just doesn't seem to be a thing so far with Prius, Volt, etc, granted those battery packs are smaller.

So "con game"...that's too strong a phase, or do you mean Elon Musk ha ha? In the long run, battery electric cars will displace fossil fuel cars. I was literally showing a group how vastly many more parts an internal combustion car has, bringing us to

is the price going to come down?

well keep in mind internal combustion engineers have been working on cost for what 130 years? Versus maybe 10 of serious production engineering for battery electric. Inevitably the cost/performance of electrics will improve, how quickly may indeed be constrained by lithium mining and battery technology in the short run. And the short-term hit for electrical rewiring to charge at home/work. THAT seems to me the real limiter to this fantasy of 25% of California vehicles being electric by 2025 or whatever. Yeah, everyone in South Central LA who owns a home is going to run out and spend thousands on electricians, and the landlords of those who rent will eagerly do so as well

 

[Blumlein 88]

Here in Texas, 31% of electricity production is "green" (nuclear+wind+solar+...), 52% is natural gas and 17% is coal+oil [2020 figures]. So any switch from gasoline-powered to electric vehicles is a net reduction (albeit not elimination) of carbon emissions.

Our wind generation capacity has been growing at an average rate of 12.6%/year over the past decade, so those numbers will continue to improve.

I subscribe to Austin Energy's "Green Choice" program, so that "nominally" all of my electricity (including the electricity used to charge my Tesla) is wind-generated. Of course, that's just "nominally" ....

For the whole country (USA) Natural Gas accounts for most electricity with coal and nuclear running very close to each other. Those are the big three. Wind is about 2/3s the amount provided by coal or nuclear. So wind, nuclear and natural gas are all better than coal for carbon emissions, and better than gasoline. So an electric car might not be zero emissions, but it is less.

 

[Head_Unit]

And what the Tesla is made of? What about damage to the environment from building it to begin with & the disposal at end of life for the Tesla product? Just wondering how those things factor in?

Um that's also a problem for non-electric vehicles. OK lithium batteries in electrics but then again piston engine blocks and transmission fluid and radiator fluid for internal combustion...a ton more parts of all kinds, plus toxic junk in catalytic converters.*

Then disposal at end of life...oh wait there's only recycling regulations in Europe, not America, because we're idiots and let manufacturers of all manner of products shove their costs on the public, then make us feel guilty via the Ad Council ("recycle!")

*https://phys.org/news/2016-01-hidden-danger-heavy-metals-catalytic.html

 

[samsa]

Um that's also a problem for non-electric vehicles. OK lithium batteries in electrics but then again piston engine blocks and transmission fluid and radiator fluid for internal combustion...a ton more parts of all kinds, plus toxic junk in catalytic converters.*

Then disposal at end of life...oh wait there's only recycling regulations in Europe, not America, because we're idiots and let manufacturers of all manner of products shove their costs on the public, then make us feel guilty via the Ad Council ("recycle!")

*https://phys.org/news/2016-01-hidden-danger-heavy-metals-catalytic.html

I'd go further and say that it's a problem (to a greater or lesser extent) for every manufactured product.

Unless @EJ3 wants to claim that manufacturing EVs is somehow worse for the environment than manufacturing ICE vehicles — a proposition that is highly dubious for the reasons you stated, among others — then I don't know what the hell his point is.

 

[Frank Dernie]

My view is that these things have been extensively studied by people with years more knowledge of a subject than I have, I call them experts, and their conclusion is electric vehicles are better for the environment than IC engined vehicles.
Now I have driven one I know that electric motors are much better than IC engines for vehicles, and here I am an expert myself being simple, quiet, low vibration and fairly cool running, needing neither a clutch nor a multi ratio gearbox to match the narrow working range of the IC engine to a large range of road speeds.
As a petrol head I was surprised to change my opinion in this way but only a fool clings onto ideas when the data shows them to be wrong.

The difficult bit is the "fuel tank".
It is big heavy and expensive. I am not sufficiently expert on its manufacture to make an informed judgement on whether overall an EV is "worse" to manufacture than an IC engined car. I have seen loads of angry anti EV posts over recent years but not one was a convincing technical document so far and most look like propaganda or idiotic conspiracy theories - the interenet is good at spreading them.

I could go into more detail about why IC engines aren't particularly good for vehicles but we are used to them and I used to enjoy the sound, and still do sometimes.

I am not sure I will go all electric, I am going to keep my plug-in hybrid for at least a while to see, but probably. It has a range of 35 miles all electric and whilst on longer runs the petrol engine eventually has to run, obviously, 10 gallons of petrol lasts about 4 months of my normal driving so I don't imagine range will be an issue with my EV and waking up to a "full tank" whenever I need is much more satisfying than a visit to a filling station.

One incontovertible benefit of EVs even in countries where the electricity generation is "dirty" is moving the source of noxious gas from 3 feet from the face of a child in a push chair to the top of a chimney a long way from people, so it is pretty well worth it anyway IMO.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My view is that these things have been extensively studied by people with years more knowledge of a subject than I have, I call them experts, and their conclusion is electric vehicles are better for the environment than IC engined vehicles.
Now I have driven one I know that electric motors are much better than IC engines for vehicles, and here I am an expert myself being simple, quiet, low vibration and fairly cool running, needing neither a clutch nor a multi ratio gearbox to match the narrow working range of the IC engine to a large range of road speeds.
As a petrol head I was surprised to change my opinion in this way but only a fool clings onto ideas when the data shows them to be wrong.

The difficult bit is the "fuel tank".
It is big heavy and expensive. I am not sufficiently expert on its manufacture to make an informed judgement on whether overall an EV is "worse" to manufacture than an IC engined car. I have seen loads of angry anti EV posts over recent years but not one was a convincing technical document so far and most look like propaganda or idiotic conspiracy theories - the interenet is good at spreading them.

I could go into more detail about why IC engines aren't particularly good for vehicles but we are used to them and I used to enjoy the sound, and still do sometimes.

I am not sure I will go all electric, I am going to keep my plug-in hybrid for at least a while to see, but probably. It has a range of 35 miles all electric and whilst on longer runs the petrol engine eventually has to run, obviously, 10 gallons of petrol lasts about 4 months of my normal driving so I don't imagine range will be an issue with my EV and waking up to a "full tank" whenever I need is much more satisfying than a visit to a filling station.

One incontovertible benefit of EVs even in countries where the electricity generation is "dirty" is moving the source of noxious gas from 3 feet from the face of a child in a push chair to the top of a chimney a long way from people, so it is pretty well worth it anyway IMO.

+1 excellent post.

 

[j_j]

But none are zero emissions.
Folks just want to ignore the emissions created by the various electrical generating methods.
It's all a con game for a large varieties of reasons.

Hydro, wind, and solar only have emission when they are built. It's just as hard to build a coal plant, uses lots of steel, and burns lots of coal afterwards. Your objection is purely inequitable.

There is no "con game".

 

[samsa]

And the short-term hit for electrical rewiring to charge at home/work. THAT seems to me the real limiter to this fantasy of 25% of California vehicles being electric by 2025 or whatever. Yeah, everyone in South Central LA who owns a home is going to run out and spend thousands on electricians, and the landlords of those who rent will eagerly do so as well

I will point out that I got >$1800 in rebates ($900 from Austin Energy, $924 from the IRS) for installing my EV charger. So, while not free, not super-expensive either.

I think the sticker price of the cars (the cost of an identically-configured Tesla Model Y has gone up by $13k since I bought mine) is the bigger short-term impediment

 

[j_j]

The electrification of vehicles does create some questions and with electrification comes other issues we don't have with ICE vehicles. Like rare earths supply and it's ethical supply, where is all this electricity coming from? and is the price going to come down?

Lithium and samarium are recycled. As we have a fleet of electric cars, the recycling is obviously the major source of materials.

Aside from that, let's not forget we have to build either kind of car.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My brother has an electric car, and has offered some anti-EV people I know a ride in it. They refused. I asked them if they were afraid they might like it, and they all had their excuses for not just taking a ride in one.

"It doesn't matter if it is good, it costs too much".

"I drive a truck, nobody makes a electric truck and if they do it won't haul very good" (I guess Ford and Rivian have that one covered).

"Wait till you have replace the batteries then you'll see why". Even though we have enough real world data to show the batteries hold up quite a long time and number of miles.

"I wouldn't like something that doesn't make any noise from the motor, you can't tell if its running or not" This was a really weird one as this person drove a big Lexus, what are they about if not being smooth and quiet.

I don't yet, but I'd really like to have an electric car. I don't even care if its green, it is just a better car.

 

[j_j]

And what the Tesla is made of? What about damage to the environment from building it to begin with & the disposal at end of life for the Tesla product? Just wondering how those things factor in?

It's made of stuff that gets recycled JUST LIKE REGULAR CARS. You keep working on utterly inequitable comparisons.