Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

[Frank Dernie]

 

[Timcognito]

Oil, natural gas, and coal are needed to produce the concrete, steel, plastics, and purified minerals used to build
green machines. The energy equivalent of 100 barrels of oil is used in the processes to fabricate a single battery
that can store the equivalent of one barrel of oil.

And when built replace that oil, natural gas and coal thousands fold for decades with very little or no earth destroying combustion.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Some run on propane too.

Had a Saab modified to burn propane with gasoline as a back up. Refuelling stations were plentiful and easy to find. While burning propane is not as efficient as burning gasoline the harmful emissions were much lower + propane was much cheaper than gasoline. No engine modifications were needed the installation was completed in a day.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Zero Emissions is a joke.
No one wants to talk about emissions and pollution being created by generating all the electricity.
It's all just a BS political football.

There is no free lunch. All forms of energy creation and usage result in some form of natural resource extraction, waste, heat generation, etc. The goal is to work for efficiencies and lessen impacts.

This will happen, but nothing happens overnight.

Emissions worldwide: Gas vs. battery-electric vehicles

Gasoline vehicles would produce lower emissions than the average battery-electric vehicle only if their fuel economy was higher than 51.5 mpg worldwide, say researchers at the University of Michigan.

news.umich.edu

Ultimately it will come down to price, consumer choice and impacts. Battery efficiency is improving dramatically, and that will continue.

 

[j_j]

Some cars run on hydrogen. And some cars run on both gasoline and batteries.

And all our garbage trucks run on methane. Or propane.

 

[j_j]

I've seen at least a dozen burned up ICE autos over the years, a number at the Eisenhower tunnel.

People said going from Tubes to solid state would never happen either. And that digital audio sucked vs. analog. Oh, well.

It's all part of the same syndrome, indeed. And the comparison in efficiency is even more in favor of electric cars. The first transistors weren't great, either. I used some of them in the 1960's time frame. Delicate, low-gain, slow little things.

 

[j_j]

"
Although these fires do present a real danger, fortunately for us they remain very rare.

Agreed. And, of course, any form of energy that concentrated will be able to burn. It's physics. Batteries, gasoline, propane, diesel, hydrogen, all things on the high end of the energy range. If they weren't, they'd be useless. Since they are up there on the high end, they'll make lots of heat, one way or another.

Physics wins. Always.

 

[j_j]

Watched a slot on the news yesterday about the dangers involved with Lithium batteries. They showed footage of a mobile phone exploding at a recycling centre, genuinely scary. It explode flew about 20’ onto another conveyer narrowly missing several people. EVs are an environment disaster waiting to happen. Even if you ignore the environmental damage done by the mining for it, that’s happening now!

Really, now, about the fracking, the carbon pollution, the spills, the refinery wastes, etc? Why do you guys always ignore the massive, probably irrevocable harm done by burning your favorite hydrocarbon, anyhow? The whole "they are expensive to make" argument applies just as well and just as bad to making a small-block chevy. Give it a rest.,

 

[j_j]

Zero Emissions is a joke.
No one wants to talk about emissions and pollution being created by generating all the electricity.
It's all just a BS political football.

So, let's not build wind farms and photovoltaic arrays so that it stays that way, because hydrocarbons are cool and you actually (gasp) have to build generators? What's your solution?

 

[j_j]

There is no free lunch. All forms of energy creation and usage result in some form of natural resource extraction, waste, heat generation, etc. The goal is to work for efficiencies and lessen impacts.

This will happen, but nothing happens overnight.

Hear, hear, and hydrocarbon burning in an IC engine is just horribly inefficient, even aside from the whole fact we're wrecking our own atmosphere that we need to breathe. I suggest that nobody buys any seafront property any time soon!

 

[Timcognito]

There is no free lunch. All forms of energy creation and usage result in some form of natural resource extraction, waste, heat generation, etc. The goal is to work for efficiencies and lessen impacts.

This will happen, but nothing happens overnight.

Emissions worldwide: Gas vs. battery-electric vehicles

Gasoline vehicles would produce lower emissions than the average battery-electric vehicle only if their fuel economy was higher than 51.5 mpg worldwide, say researchers at the University of Michigan.

news.umich.edu

Ultimately it will come down to price, consumer choice and impacts. Battery efficiency is improving dramatically, and that will continue.


View attachment 252931

I find this article factual but a bit skewed, not condemning it. Here is a deeper analysis with more through research with eight studies as inputs listed at the end.

Electric Cars vs Gas Cars – Which Is Best For The Environment? - Go Green Post

Electric cars having been gaining in popularity in recent years, in part due to talk about their benefit to the environment. On one hand, gas-powered vehicles use fossil fuels to run. On the other hand, electric cars can also run on fossil fuels. This makes it difficult to know if electric cars...

thegogreenpost.com

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

Really, now, about the fracking, the carbon pollution, the spills, the refinery wastes, etc? Why do you guys always ignore the massive, probably irrevocable harm done by burning your favorite hydrocarbon, anyhow? The whole "they are expensive to make" argument applies just as well and just as bad to making a small-block chevy. Give it a rest.,

Give it a rest? Trying to inject a sense of realism into the debate. Too many look at EVs as the perfect solution with no drawbacks, wait until it comes to recycling the billions of tonnes of waste products from scrapping these enormous batteries. What will happen to the materials that cannot be recycled? Will we end up dumping them in the Third World as we do now with electronic waste?
Out of sight, out of mind! Please don’t come up with we will have the technology by then argument.

 

[captainbeefheart]

Hear, hear, and hydrocarbon burning in an IC engine is just horribly inefficient, even aside from the whole fact we're wrecking our own atmosphere that we need to breathe. I suggest that nobody buys any seafront property any time soon!

This scare tactic has been said for decades. Yet waterfront property is still there after all the projections that said they were supposed to be underwater decades ago.

Oil is plentiful and less costly to extract, why not use it until we have something that actually can replace it? The fact of the matter is we don't have anything in place that can actually replace hydrocarbons and until we do why not take advantage of the natural resources? What leaves the tailpipe is mostly CO2 which plants breathe. They need to live also. We give them CO2 to breathe they give us Oxygen, symbiotic relationship.

The claim batteries will come down in price is ridiculous since they need rare earth metals, key word rare. If everyone is forced to go EV then the demand will increase far beyond the supply and price would substantially increase.

Our grid can't even handle the EV cars now. Look at California, they ask not to charge your car or else it causes blackouts and brownouts and you people want everyone to drive one? It's a bad joke all day long from the climate cultists.

 

[Suffolkhifinut]

This scare tactic has been said for decades. Yet waterfront property is still there after all the projections that said they were supposed to be underwater decades ago.

Oil is plentiful and less costly to extract, why not use it until we have something that actually can replace it? The fact of the matter is we don't have anything in place that can actually replace hydrocarbons and until we do why not take advantage of the natural resources? What leaves the tailpipe is mostly CO2 which plants breathe. They need to live also. We give them CO2 to breathe they give us Oxygen, symbiotic relationship.

The claim batteries will come down in price is ridiculous since they need rare earth metals, key word rare. If everyone is forced to go EV then the demand will increase far beyond the supply and price would substantially increase.

Our grid can't even handle the EV cars now. Look at California, they ask not to charge your car or else it causes blackouts and brownouts and you people want everyone to drive one? It's a bad joke all day long from the climate cultists.

The Swiss Government is putting legislation in front of Parliament to ban the recharging EVs when their National Grid is nearing its capacity. We are told in the UK, domestic EV charging points can be remotely switched off of the National Grid looks like being swamped.

 

[AdamG]

Come on Guys, please don’t turn this into a political debate. We don’t want to close this thread but will if the conversation continues to go political. Please and thank you for your understanding.

 

[j_j]

Give it a rest? Trying to inject a sense of realism into the debate. Too many look at EVs as the perfect solution with no drawbacks ...

Endless inequitable comparisons are just that inequitable comparisons.

Nobody in this thread claims that anything is perfect. That's a straw man.

 

[gvl]

Our grid can't even handle the EV cars now. Look at California, they ask not to charge your car or else it causes blackouts and brownouts and you people want everyone to drive one? It's a bad joke all day long from the climate cultists.

No need to worry, they have plenty of time to resolve all these issues before 2030 when new gas cars become illegal. Not.

 

[blueone]

The claim batteries will come down in price is ridiculous since they need rare earth metals, key word rare. If everyone is forced to go EV then the demand will increase far beyond the supply and price would substantially increase.

Rare earth metals are not actually, but they are environmentally messy to mine. (Just one link of many) :

What’s So Rare About Rare Earth Elements?

For mining and REE exploration, you should use portable x-ray fluorescence (PXRF) analyzer, perform sample preparation, and choose the correct excitation.

www.thermofisher.com

Our grid can't even handle the EV cars now. Look at California, they ask not to charge your car or else it causes blackouts and brownouts and you people want everyone to drive one? It's a bad joke all day long from the climate cultists.

The grid readiness issue is real, and will likely get worse for quite a while before it gets better.

 

[j_j]

This scare tactic has been said for decades. Yet waterfront property is still there after all the projections that said they were supposed to be underwater decades ago.

Ask anyone from Miami Beach about that, then, or Venice, or Majorca, or San Diego, or ....

The sea level rise is tested, measured, documented, and utterly proven. Taking the most extreme predictions ever offered and using them as an excuse to carry on wrecking things is inexcusable.

 

[captainbeefheart]

The Swiss Government is putting legislation in front of Parliament to ban the recharging EVs when their National Grid is nearing its capacity. We are told in the UK, domestic EV charging points can be remotely switched off of the National Grid looks like being swamped.

Not surprising at all.

The grid was being pushed to it's limits already and now with EV's it's doing more damage than good which is why they need to ask people to not charge their cars during peak usage hours or they have to literally take them offline in order to not cause blackouts.

And they want everyone to go buy an EV? It's insanity.