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Zero-emission vehicles, their batteries & subsidies/rebates for them.- No politics regarding the subsidies!

Frank Dernie

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At some point, the up front costs are fully recouped over a period of years if you compare it to the current rates being charged/paid for the same amount of electricity used, and once fully amortized (however long that takes) it's the cost of maintenance/replacement of the inverter which is normally the first to go after 10 years depending on the build quality and local climate.
I installed a small solar system here almost 10 years ago. The kit was still quite expensive back then but it paid for itself in around 6 years and now I have free electricity most of summer.
 

pseudoid

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One is not supposed to get emotional about their investments
Does "Carbon Credits" become too much Off-Topic in discussion of eVs?
Me thinx not! So, I'll go on but from an investment in ESG perspective.

Common folk (and even folks like us) are on the sidelines or actively participating in the wild swings of the crypto-currency markets.
A news topic I ran across was about the CarbonCredit market' demand surges, along w/shortages being predicted that are causing upswings in CC prices.
We've already discussed Tesla profits from CCs. You can bypass the middle man (Musk) and invest directly in CCs.
It may/could be a smoother and more legit investment strategy than most crypto-currencies. IMHO
As always; YMMV:facepalm:

Be aware that forest wildfires are an 'intangible' in above discussion.
 

Frank Dernie

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FWIW I was taught in the late 1960s at Imperial College, London how much better electric motors are than IC engines for transport.
Simple balanced quiet no need of clutch and a wide operating speed band so no need for a multi ratio transmission.
The problem is batteries.
Anyway as a petrol head who only studied engineering at imperial in the hope of getting a job in Formula 1 I ignored the lesson.
Hybrids showed me how good electric motors are and I bought my first 17 years ago. I am now running in a plug in hybrid which goes far enough on a charge for my local “motoring” to be all electric.

I ordered an EV last July and am still waiting for its delivery.

I ordered the EV because it was so good to drive. Yes I’ll miss the V8 sound sometimes but mostly the silence and instant throttle response will be much, much better :)
 

Suffolkhifinut

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Except that it's a toy. 150MW is enough to power only about 60,000-80,000 homes, and that's not assuming EVs.
Sometime in the future we will be faced with disposing of EV batteries and even worse these massive storage batteries. The environmental costs are likely to be massive and I’m not talking about financial costs. Repeatedly the environmental lobby go for the instant solution, never looking at the problems they cause both immediately and in the future.
 
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I think nuclear power is the answer in the interim. Then all these EV's will be charged with a much lower carbon footprint. I'm a hybrid guy. Not fun, not super efficient but no range anxiety and not nearly as expensive as most EV's that appeal to me.
 

Chromatischism

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I think nuclear power is the answer in the interim. Then all these EV's will be charged with a much lower carbon footprint.
Totally agree, but unfortunately nuclear plants take a heck of a long time to build and haven't been cost competitive because of cost over runs. That has dampened investment in them.
 

pseudoid

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I ordered an EV last July and am still waiting for its delivery.
I truly think that Mini was not smart enough (and missed a great opportunity) to resurrect their Mini as an eV, even before Tesla production was taken off diapers!
Maybe it was BMW, at the Mini masthead, that prevented that move... which would have been bold and innovative at the time.:(
 

Marc v E

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I think nuclear power is the answer in the interim. Then all these EV's will be charged with a much lower carbon footprint. I'm a hybrid guy. Not fun, not super efficient but no range anxiety and not nearly as expensive as most EV's that appeal to me.
A nuclear power plant takes on average 6 years to build iirc. There simply wouldn't be enough time to build them in time. A solar farm is a matter of months. 15 iirc
 

Marc v E

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Sometime in the future we will be faced with disposing of EV batteries and even worse these massive storage batteries. The environmental costs are likely to be massive and I’m not talking about financial costs. Repeatedly the environmental lobby go for the instant solution, never looking at the problems they cause both immediately and in the future.
Actually worn out batteries are the best and richest source of ore that exists. That's why Redwood Materials exists. And that's why Tesla can easily pledge to recycle all batteries. It's financially the best proposition.
 
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A nuclear power plant takes on average 6 years to build iirc. There simply wouldn't be enough time to build them in time. A solar farm is a matter of months. 15 iirc
Agree it's slow and expensive. Disagree that's the main reason. Tree huggers that think there are viable alternatives are the root cause in my opinion. Either way, we're just not there yet and need to think rather than react based on little Gretta...
 

pseudoid

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Actually worn out batteries are the best and richest source of ore that exists.
"Tesla's first battery option is Nickel Cobalt Aluminum (NCA). The company started using NCA battery chemistry years ago in the form of 18650 cells, which were produced by Panasonic for the Model S and Model X.
Tesla also uses cells with the same chemistry in the Model 3 and Model Y, though the size is different: 2170 cells, which are larger and more energy-dense than the 18650 cells.
Today, 2170 cells with NCA chemistry are used in all dual-motor Model 3 and Y vehicles. The current Model S and X still use NCA chemistry, though they're also still using the 18650 cells.
Fast-forward to more recently, and Tesla started using a second battery chemistry in China, which eventually made its way to the US. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) battery cells will be used in all Tesla's single-motor rear-wheel-drive vehicles. In the US, this means only the base Model 3 uses LFP chemistry, though a new Model Y LFP variant may be on the way. We should also note that, as far as battery cell size is concerned, these are all 2170 cells.
Tesla's third battery option is the 4680 cell it raved about a few years ago at its Battery Day event. The Model Y crossovers coming out of Tesla's new Gigafactory in Austin will be fitted with 4680 Tabless battery cells. The vehicles will also be the first from Tesla to feature its structural battery pack."

From <https://insideevs.com/news/575956/tesla-battery-chemistries-explained/>
Which type?;)
LFP - Lithium Iron Phosphate
LCO - Lithium Cobalt Oxide (Most used: phones/tablets/cameras)
NMC - Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide
NCA - Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide
LTO - Lithium Titanate
LMO - Lithium Manganese Oxide
LMAO - When supercapacitors become viable alternative
Which type?:confused:
 
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Doodski

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I ordered an EV last July and am still waiting for its delivery.
WowazaH! You are really going to appreciate that car (I think it is a EV Taycan.) when it is finally delivered. I've seen a couple around town and they are a wonderful car. :D
 
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Doodski

Doodski

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Sometime in the future we will be faced with disposing of EV batteries and even worse these massive storage batteries. The environmental costs are likely to be massive and I’m not talking about financial costs. Repeatedly the environmental lobby go for the instant solution, never looking at the problems they cause both immediately and in the future.
Too many special interest groups that apparently have not thought this through properly. :facepalm:
 
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Doodski

Doodski

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Totally agree, but unfortunately nuclear plants take a heck of a long time to build and haven't been cost competitive because of cost over runs. That has dampened investment in them.
One issue with nuclear is the carbon footprint from the massive amounts of concrete required but if it can be built to last a long time then voila... a success.
 

Suffolkhifinut

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FWIW I was taught in the late 1960s at Imperial College, London how much better electric motors are than IC engines for transport.
Simple balanced quiet no need of clutch and a wide operating speed band so no need for a multi ratio transmission.
The problem is batteries.
Anyway as a petrol head who only studied engineering at imperial in the hope of getting a job in Formula 1 I ignored the lesson.
Hybrids showed me how good electric motors are and I bought my first 17 years ago. I am now running in a plug in hybrid which goes far enough on a charge for my local “motoring” to be all electric.

I ordered an EV last July and am still waiting for its delivery.

I ordered the EV because it was so good to drive. Yes I’ll miss the V8 sound sometimes but mostly the silence and instant throttle response will be much, much better :)
Think EV manufacturers aren’t innovative enough? If you take as an example the amount of mechanical energy produced by a car’s suspension system, which could be converted to electrical energy. Suggested many years ago to Jaguar / Land Rover an LVDT that could be modded to generate a charging current. Had a letter back thanking me for the suggestion, heard no more, assume it either wasn’t followed up or not pursued on cost / practicality grounds.
 

Frank Dernie

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Think EV manufacturers aren’t innovative enough? If you take as an example the amount of mechanical energy produced by a car’s suspension system, which could be converted to electrical energy. Suggested many years ago to Jaguar / Land Rover an LVDT that could be modded to generate a charging current. Had a letter back thanking me for the suggestion, heard no more, assume it either wasn’t followed up or not pursued on cost / practicality grounds.
It doesn’t work because it doesn’t generate enough energy. Self levelling dampers use this energy to “pump themselves up” but it takes quite a distance to re-level itself after loading the boot, for example.
We looked into it in Formula 1 when active suspension was banned, it was laughably small amount of energy, I wish I could remember how much but it was 35 years ago.
 
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