Your help with my first speaker build

[Henryk]

Hello,

I've read this site for years now and would like to start my first speaker project!
After quite a bit of research on my own, I could really use a hand. My goal is:
To inexpensively replicate/exceed the sound quality of my old Altec Santana 879A speakers.
[NOTE: The cabinets and rubber were untouched from 1970 and the amplifier in question is a Bryston B-60]

I'm certainly no sound expert but I loved the full tone of the 15" bi-flex woofer.
Tweeter left a bit to be desired, but given the age I expected as much.

While this is indeed my first DIY speaker, my uncle is a master carpenter & cabinet maker.
He's never done this before but his knowledge of woodworking is exceptional.

With the ability to customize a cabinet to any configuration of components,
can I affordably construct a better speaker than I was used to?

As far as budget goes, I'd rather not go above $1,000 CAD for the woofer/tweeter/crossover parts.
However, I know there can be serious diminishing returns after you pass a sweet spot.
Can someone also educate me on what general level of sound quality I can expect for a rough $ range?

Thanks in advance to anyone kind enough to lend their expertise!
- Henry


PS... More information if you need it:
- This is for a 400 sq/ft apartment room enjoyed at low/moderate volume
- There's no genre of music I play more than any other
- The Bryston B-60 amplifier outputs 60W/channel @ 8ohm, 100W/channel @ 4ohm
- My old Altec 879A's were 8ohm impedance with 95-100db efficiency (I believe)
- If pre-made cabinets would perform just like a custom job, that's okay too
- I'd also be happy using a well proven parts list & schematic
- As for max. cabinet size, can we keep it close to my old 879A's?
- Would prefer a min. 12"woofer size - unless you advise otherwise
- Coaxial or separate tweeter, active or passive; whatever produces the best sound quality
- I'm located in Canada but don't mind buying from USA/international if they'll ship to me

 

[Zek]

I think it would be better if you asked your question on a specialized DIY site for building speakers.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I would recommend this thread: My experience with DIY and it's many frustrations that are not talked about

There is also Beranek's Law which means you will be convinced what you've built is brilliant

It's simply unlikely that you will be able to do this more cheaply than buying from major manufacturers. If you are setting out to learn only, then you may have fun, and you may be lucky and successful, but the odds are stacked against you.

 

[AudiOhm]

Speaker design has come a long way since the 70's.

If you are in Canada, Solen would be a good start.

They have kits that are already designed for you, build your cabinets and purchase the components from them.

Solen Kits

Some good designs here

DIY Loudspeaker Troels Gravesen

Ohms

 

[moonlight rainbow dream]

My first recommendation would be to actually get out there to shops or even Best Buy (whatever options are available to you) and listen to a lot of speakers (especially ones that have been shown to measure well here or at Erin's Audio Corner). Coming from a lot of listening time on an older design that is probably really "uncouth" from the perspective of modern speaker design, I think it's important to recalibrate your expectations and figure out what exactly it is you want from a set of speakers.

With that out of the way, I think an "econowave" type speaker would best suit what you're looking for. This is a big box speaker that uses large pro audio woofer and horn+compression driver, but executed in a way that reflects our best current understanding of good speaker performance (basically targeting smooth and flat anechoic axial response with excellent directivity control).

Something like this:

The Soundstage 15 – 15″ 2-way HiFi Speaker Plans – Toid's DIY Audio

toidsdiyaudio.com

 

[droid2000]

"15″ woofer that can go down to 46hz

Reminds me of a Top Gear episode where they were reviewing a late 70's American "muscle" car.

"200HP out of a 450 cubic inch engine. It's impressive... that it's only 200HP."

 

[hex168]

My first recommendation would be to actually get out there to shops or even Best Buy (whatever options are available to you) and listen to a lot of speakers (especially ones that have been shown to measure well here or at Erin's Audio Corner). Coming from a lot of listening time on an older design that is probably really "uncouth" from the perspective of modern speaker design, I think it's important to recalibrate your expectations and figure out what exactly it is you want from a set of speakers.

With that out of the way, I think an "econowave" type speaker would best suit what you're looking for. This is a big box speaker that uses large pro audio woofer and horn+compression driver, but executed in a way that reflects our best current understanding of good speaker performance (basically targeting smooth and flat anechoic axial response with excellent directivity control).

Something like this:

The Soundstage 15 – 15″ 2-way HiFi Speaker Plans – Toid's DIY Audio

toidsdiyaudio.com

Looking at that design, the selected waveguide is too small to control beamwidth below about 1300-1400 Hz, too high to expect good midrange from a 15".

Compare to this, which has a better match between the drivers, but requires a sub. Which I think is a better compromise:

MTG Designs - VBS-10.2

Design description and goals: Bigger Brother to the VBS-6.2 this is another design that delivers a very high level of bang for your buck. A 10" 2-way with a horn loaded compression driver that does not sacrifice sound quality in its ability to deliver high output for very reasonable costs. Ideally

www.mtg-designs.com

 

[Henryk]

I would recommend this thread: My experience with DIY and it's many frustrations that are not talked about

There is also Beranek's Law which means you will be convinced what you've built is brilliant

It's simply unlikely that you will be able to do this more cheaply than buying from major manufacturers. If you are setting out to learn only, then you may have fun, and you may be lucky and successful, but the odds are stacked against you.

The problem is that I can't find any modern speakers with drivers 12" or bigger, that aren't subwoofers.
Do you know of any sub-$1,000 that you'd recommend?

 

[Chrispy]

The problem is that I can't find any modern speakers with drivers 12" or bigger, that aren't subwoofers.
Do you know of any sub-$1,000 that you'd recommend?

There are speakers with woofers larger than 12", but they do tend to cost more than $1000. Maybe the used market....or diy if you count your building and finishing time "free"....

 

[MaxwellsEq]

The problem is that I can't find any modern speakers with drivers 12" or bigger, that aren't subwoofers.
Do you know of any sub-$1,000 that you'd recommend?

I don't, sorry.

 

[Henryk]

There are speakers with woofers larger than 12", but they do tend to cost more than $1000. Maybe the used market....or diy if you count your building and finishing time "free"....

I don't, sorry.

If I removed that budget stipulation, could you point me in the direction of anything 12"+ that either of you would recommend?
From a manufacturer, or a DIY kit - whatever performs best.

 

[hex168]

Here is a known good, if expensive DIY project. If the parts are still available when I retire, I may go for it myself:

Project M2 DIY Thread

Since the JBL Master Reference Monitor thread is so massive I'm staring a thread that I and others can document our M2 DIY process if the. Here are some links that I was able to reference. Thank you for all of your contributions that made my and others project happen. Schematic of the M2 -...

www.audioheritage.org

Lots of measurements in this thread (note that the attempt at adding a midrange was a blind alley, predictable due to directivity mismatch):

JBL M2 Clone

I recently measured a JBL D2430K compression driver and M2 lens. My goal is to build an M2 clone. The speakers are going to go into individual boxes allowing me to stack the woofer and D2 into an M2, or even include a midrange. I got a pair of B&C 5NDL38 for cheap, and if they don't work I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And measurements of the original:

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Parts source:

JBL M2 Horn Lens 5025594

Brand New Genuine JBL M2 Horn Lens #5025594. It is normal for there so be some slight mold imperfections on the mounting flange.

reconingspeakers.com

JBL M2 Crossover 5030032

Brand New Genuine JBL M2 Crossover 5030032

reconingspeakers.com

JBL 2216ND Woofer for JBL M2 #5041785

Brand New Genuine JBL 2216ND Woofer for JBL M2 #5041785 or 320-0045-001. Also used in S4700. 8 ohms

reconingspeakers.com

JBL M2 Horn Flange #5026224

Brand New Genuine JBL M2 Horn Flange #5026224

reconingspeakers.com

JBL D2430K Tweeter for JBL M2 #5032754X

Brand New Genuine JBL D2430K Tweeter for JBL M2. D2 compression driver. 1.5” throat diameter Note: These drivers have a treatment coating to prevent corrosion which can sometimes causes a brown mottled appearance on the finish. This is normal and within spec as per JBL.

reconingspeakers.com

Can't forget the logo:

JBL M2 Horn Logo 950-00028-00

Brand New Genuine JBL Horn Logo 950-00028-00. Also used in LSR32 and LSR6332.

reconingspeakers.com

 

[mhardy6647]

Altec produced many superb drivers and loudspeaker systems (I am a big fan of the big Altec sound).
The Santana... wasn't really one of them, though.
(although the earlier Santana morph using the Biflex woofer and an Altec cone tweeter was superior to the later morph using rather generic drivers)

That said, you might want to start here, @Henryk

415-8B Biflex Loudspeaker Jean Hiraga Special Edition (EACH)

The 415-8B is the newest loudspeaker manufactured by Great Plains Audio This project was inspired by Mr. Jean Hiraga who is well known in the high-end world for his crossover designs, redesigns and modification of loudspeakers and amplifiers. After building successful speaker systems using used...

great-plains-audio.myshopify.com

a tad pricey, though.

Vintage Biflexes (12" and 15") aren't particularly hard to find and aren't obscenely expensive.

 

[Henryk]

Altec produced many superb drivers and loudspeaker systems (I am a big fan of the big Altec sound).
The Santana... wasn't really one of them, though.
(although the earlier Santana morph using the Biflex woofer and an Altec cone tweeter was superior to the later morph using rather generic drivers)

Vintage Biflexes (12" and 15") aren't particularly hard to find and aren't obscenely expensive.

M.Hardy6647,
Believe it or not, but the GPA 415-8B was the exact same product I was looking at a few years ago, when I was intent on salvaging the Santana cabinets and simply swapping woofers. The problem which I could not overcome at the time was that the company itself recommended a different, custom-built cabinet. Such a task exceeded my abilities at the time. As you eluded to, Biflex drivers seem like an abandoned design, but much like yourself I greatly enjoy the sound they reproduce.

Long story short, I had to sell the Altec Santanas and I am now looking for something to replace them. Almost everyone I mention this to says that technology has some so far since the 70's that I'd just be chasing a sonically inferior setup. However, in the back of my mind I remember that Tannoy still uses similar goods in their Westminster Royal. My imagination has limits though...

While I have your attention, though:
Do you have any other suggestions on where I could/should look to scratch "that Altec itch"?


Thank you, sir!

 

[Henryk]

Here is a known good, if expensive DIY project. If the parts are still available when I retire, I may go for it myself:

Project M2 DIY Thread

Since the JBL Master Reference Monitor thread is so massive I'm staring a thread that I and others can document our M2 DIY process if the. Here are some links that I was able to reference. Thank you for all of your contributions that made my and others project happen. Schematic of the M2 -...

www.audioheritage.org

Lots of measurements in this thread (note that the attempt at adding a midrange was a blind alley, predictable due to directivity mismatch):

JBL M2 Clone

I recently measured a JBL D2430K compression driver and M2 lens. My goal is to build an M2 clone. The speakers are going to go into individual boxes allowing me to stack the woofer and D2 into an M2, or even include a midrange. I got a pair of B&C 5NDL38 for cheap, and if they don't work I...

www.audiosciencereview.com

And measurements of the original:

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor

JBL M2 Master Reference Monitor

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

Parts source:

JBL M2 Horn Lens 5025594

Brand New Genuine JBL M2 Horn Lens #5025594. It is normal for there so be some slight mold imperfections on the mounting flange.

reconingspeakers.com

JBL M2 Crossover 5030032

Brand New Genuine JBL M2 Crossover 5030032

reconingspeakers.com

JBL 2216ND Woofer for JBL M2 #5041785

Brand New Genuine JBL 2216ND Woofer for JBL M2 #5041785 or 320-0045-001. Also used in S4700. 8 ohms

reconingspeakers.com

JBL M2 Horn Flange #5026224

Brand New Genuine JBL M2 Horn Flange #5026224

reconingspeakers.com

JBL D2430K Tweeter for JBL M2 #5032754X

Brand New Genuine JBL D2430K Tweeter for JBL M2. D2 compression driver. 1.5” throat diameter Note: These drivers have a treatment coating to prevent corrosion which can sometimes causes a brown mottled appearance on the finish. This is normal and within spec as per JBL.

reconingspeakers.com

Can't forget the logo:

JBL M2 Horn Logo 950-00028-00

Brand New Genuine JBL Horn Logo 950-00028-00. Also used in LSR32 and LSR6332.

reconingspeakers.com

Hex,
I saw that exact same build just the other day while I was researching!
Looks like such a nice project, if not a bit intimidating to a novice like myself

Apart from labor, what do you estimate their budget to be?

Cheers!

 

[mhardy6647]

The richness of the vintage Altec sound is seldom encountered and always satisfying.
If you like(d) the Santanas -- get a pair of Santiagos. No cachet with the Altec faithful, so they're not terribly expensive, but they lie midway on the axis between the Valencia (which are splenid and gloriously sensitive, but lack both bass and HF) and the Nineteen (which fix some of those shortcomings, but with a very big box and a very high price tag).



I wouldn't kid you!


If what you want, first and foremost, is the midrange richness, here's a nice DIY option. I'd love to go this route, but 414s are hard to find and the plastic variants of the Altec 32 horns (widely held to be the best morph of these Western Electric semi-copies) have gotten pricey. I do have a pair of the aluminum Altec 32 horns, but they're currently out on loan.

Altec 753C

jelabs.blogspot.com

... so... no... I wouldn't necessarily go new to rekindle your Santana experience.

Are there technically better drivers and horns than the Altec products? Sure. Do they satisfy like the Altecs (dollar for dollar spent, in 2023)? Well... that is harder to answer. Actually, it's impossible to answer generically. By the same token, it's easy for me to answer personally.

PS The Altec hardware that I really, really like -- I cannot rationalize the expenditure for.
My big biggish "Frankenaltecs" do fine for me for a reasonable (to me) investment. I am happy enough.



Here's the cabinet design (meant for 604 Duplexes, which is how I started with them) -- FWIW:

Billforts Audio Obsession

 

[Mudjock]

Not quite a 12" woofer (only a 10), but the Indium 7 might fit the bill...

 

[hex168]

Hex,
I saw that exact same build just the other day while I was researching!
Looks like such a nice project, if not a bit intimidating to a novice like myself

Apart from labor, what do you estimate their budget to be?

Cheers!

The parts I listed cost $1,358 per speaker, plus shipping. On top of that, you would need materials for a roughly 5 cubic foot cabinet, which can be anything from unfinished MDF to furniture-grade with a cost that varies accordingly, also ports, fill, terminals, screws, etc.

M2s, as an active system, require separate amps for the woofers and tweeters and depend on DSP. A pair of Crown XLS1502s (about $400 each, cheaper if used) should do if you have a reasonably large listening distance. If not, you may need a less noisy amp (Buckeye looks interesting). A minidsp would be adequate for DSP, they have lots of options (the 2x4HD starts at $225) depending on how you want to set up your system. Others here can advise on that.

All that said, an end-game system would be a challenging place to start for a first DIY project. All the information is out there, but I'd consider starting with something simpler, as I mentioned in post #7. It depends on how ambitious you feel, and if you think you need something like an M2. (I admit I am seriously considering it at a retirement project in a couple of years. I'm torn; I'm also considering my first serious multichannel system and nine DIY M2s are out of the question.)

Regardless of what you choose to build, a measurement microphone and REW are needed to check your work.

 

[Henryk]

The richness of the vintage Altec sound is seldom encountered and always satisfying.
If you like(d) the Santanas -- get a pair of Santiagos. No cachet with the Altec faithful, so they're not terribly expensive, but they lie midway on the axis between the Valencia (which are splenid and gloriously sensitive, but lack both bass and HF) and the Nineteen (which fix some of those shortcomings, but with a very big box and a very high price tag).



I wouldn't kid you!

You, my friend, are an "enabler"

If I want the Altec sound, should I not just build the cabinets for the GPA 415-8B and be done?
'New' driver/old tech, same sound (or no?)

 

[Henryk]

The parts I listed cost $1,358 per speaker, plus shipping. On top of that, you would need materials for a roughly 5 cubic foot cabinet, which can be anything from unfinished MDF to furniture-grade with a cost that varies accordingly, also ports, fill, terminals, screws, etc.

M2s, as an active system, require separate amps for the woofers and tweeters and depend on DSP. A pair of Crown XLS1502s (about $400 each, cheaper if used) should do if you have a reasonably large listening distance. If not, you may need a less noisy amp (Buckeye looks interesting). A minidsp would be adequate for DSP, they have lots of options (the 2x4HD starts at $225) depending on how you want to set up your system. Others here can advise on that.

All that said, an end-game system would be a challenging place to start for a first DIY project. All the information is out there, but I'd consider starting with something simpler, as I mentioned in post #7. It depends on how ambitious you feel, and if you think you need something like an M2. (I admit I am seriously considering it at a retirement project in a couple of years. I'm torn; I'm also considering my first serious multichannel system and nine DIY M2s are out of the question.)

Regardless of what you choose to build, a measurement microphone and REW are needed to check your work.

That's so cheap!

How much to get a good setup for DSP room correction on top of it?