Why I am unable to hear any difference between these DACs?

[maxxevv]

We did a blind test. 4 musicians and 4 violins. First he played the Stradivarius to memorise the sound. Then he could pick it each time during the test. None of us were able to do that.
We listen with our brain. This can be trained to better hear those differences in the sound.

There was context in your test, so its not that difficult to pick out the difference. There is a similar video of a world class violinist picking out different Stradivarius violins by listening to them blind after auditioning them.

What I meant was that its difficult to practically impossible if there is no context, as in picking out a Stradivarius from a random audio recording without knowing who was playing or ever even heard the specific violin before.

 

[cistercian]

Once performance is high enough there should be no difference...at least a difference you can easily hear!
I had an inexpensive Sony CD player for 30 years and the transport failed. I bought a Tascam CD player and was
appalled by the poor frequency response of it's analog output. I needed some functionality to drive my amp
so I purchased a RME ADI-2 DAC. When I listened critically to the new combination I was amazed at how much more
clarity and detail there was. I wanted to know why and found out the old Sony CD player had a very poor 14bit ADC chip
in it. At the time I bought it much better players (which I could not afford) existed which had higher quality ADC processing. Once you use one of the
DACs that Amir has tested to be transparent...telling the difference becomes impossible.
Your Onkyo has a good DAC apparently! So your experience is not surprising.

I won't ever "upgrade" my RME. Discernible improvement would be impossible, unlike going from inexpensive 1990
gear to reference grade 2020 gear!

 

[RobS]

Dear fellow audio scientists,

I have been following many of the discussion for a while and appreciate your time, effort and opinion on various issues. I have a short question, which is both fundamental and specific so I would love to hear what you think.

I have listened to a couple of decent speakers in the sub 5k Euro range (such as ATC SMC40, KEF R700, Heco Celan 9). I just replaced my KEF R500 with Heco Elementa (Similar to Celan 7 I was told), as I find them way may more resolving in the mid and upper register (500 Hz and up). It looks like this is not specific to my chain, which comprises a RaspberryPi with Volumio -> Onkyo P3000R -> Onkyo M-5000R. In my case, I assume the lower end is amplified with some loss of detail. However, I am in love with the looks of the M-5000R and I am not looking for a replacement.

I have been testing a few budget but well reviewed DACs (up to 500 Euro/USD – SMSL, Topping) which feature the newest chips as opposed to my Onkyo’s twin Burr Brown PCM1795, which was excellent a decade ago. To my surprise, the external DACs sound so similar to the Onkyo that I cannot tell any difference. My question is: Are the differences too minute to note or would you assume my system is “hiding” too much detail from me?

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
Dee

It depends on a few factors.

I would think the ATCs at least would be revealing of your upstream components.

I would try different external DACs that use different chips. ESS and AKM chips both have a different sound depending on their implementation. R2R DACs also have a very distinct sound to them than Delta Sigma DACs.

If you don't hear any difference, then either you don't have the recordings that will reveal a difference in source gear or your amp and speakers are not resolving enough. My money is on the Onkyo amplifier as the bottleneck.

 

[RickSanchez]

If you don't hear any difference, then either you don't have the recordings that will reveal a difference in source gear or your amp and speakers are not resolving enough. My money is on the Onkyo amplifier as the bottleneck.

I would encourage you to read this: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

Then use that information to better understand the DAC measurements that Amir has provided. Once the engineering of a DAC reaches that threshold of performance it is audibly transparent, and therefore it will not sound any different from any other well-engineered DAC. (Other than what @Chromatischism mentions: the slight possibility of a listener being able to hear differences in filters.) While the OP is free to invest in other recordings or more "resolving" speakers they should not do so in hopes of hearing differences in their DAC.

 

[RobS]

I've heard plenty of well measuring DACs and they all sound different. As I said, to the degree of which they differ sonically depends.

DAC implementation matters. From the power supply to the digital filter, to the analog filter, to the output stage, to the layout, to the quality of parts, to the clocking, and etc.

Measurements don't tell us everything. And everything does have a sound.

 

[RickSanchez]

DAC implementation matters. From the power supply to the digital filter, to the analog filter, to the output stage, to the layout, to the quality of parts, to the clocking, and etc.

We are in 100% agreement there. And that's what the measurements on ASR reveal: how well the manufacturer designed the DAC (parts + implementation). What's measured here is the final output, not each individual element of the DAC.

Measurements don't tell us everything.

But measurements do tell us everything we need to know about a DAC: does it accurately convert a digital signal to an audio signal without adding noise and distortion.

 

[Killingbeans]

Measurements don't tell us everything. And everything does have a sound.

There are tons of people who swear on the life of their sweet old mother that "everything" includes using mountain crystals and "quantum" stickers as tweaks

Where do you personally draw the line and how?

 

[Svperstar]

My original Modi Multibit sounds darker then my other DACs, other then that the same.

 

[majingotan]

I've heard plenty of well measuring DACs and they all sound different. As I said, to the degree of which they differ sonically depends.

DAC implementation matters. From the power supply to the digital filter, to the analog filter, to the output stage, to the layout, to the quality of parts, to the clocking, and etc.

Measurements don't tell us everything. And everything does have a sound.

Do you still have the Dangerous Music Convert 2 to send to Amir? Would be interesting to see how that performs since some studios use that piece of gear for mixing/mastering.

 

[Chromatischism]

Then use that information to better understand the DAC measurements that Amir has provided. Once the engineering of a DAC reaches that threshold of performance it is audibly transparent, and therefore it will not sound any different from any other well-engineered DAC. (Other than what @Chromatischism mentions: the slight possibility of a listener being able to hear differences in filters.) While the OP is free to invest in other recordings or more "resolving" speakers they should not do so in hopes of hearing differences in their DAC.

Yeah, I could - but that was with sealed IEMs blocking about 30 dB of the background + intense concentration on the same passages replayed repeatedly. It was a good test since the only variable to change was the filter. But the differences were diminutive with my test material.

 

[RobS]

Do you still have the Dangerous Music Convert 2 to send to Amir? Would be interesting to see how that performs since some studios use that piece of gear for mixing/mastering.

How do you know what I own?

 

[majingotan]

How do you know what I own?

I've been a lurker for a while in audio forum sites and read your old threads there long time ago but settled here on ASR as the de facto home for my views/opinions about audio

 

[Mnyb]

To answer to original q by op.

Because you are a human being , you might aswell leap 80 feet into the air it also humanly impossible.......

 

[RobS]

But measurements do tell us everything we need to know about a DAC: does it accurately convert a digital signal to an audio signal without adding noise and distortion.

None of the excellent DAC measurements have any bearing on what we actually hear.

There's a reason why tons of Topping DACs flood the used market, because people are dissatisfied by how they sound.

Heck my Apple Dongle has a higher SINAD than the Yggdrasil (according to Amir's chart), but it sounds worse than the headphone jack in the armrest of an airline seat in economy class.

The Yggdrasil does sound better than it, but it has its own issues that are not shown in the measurements that Amir has taken. For example, the Yggdrasil has a dynamic range compression that pushes the background sounds in recordings forward to make them louder than they are in an attempt to appear "higher rez". There's also treble detail loss and bloat added to the upper bass response, which can be heard in a direct comparison with other DACs.

None of these characteristics correlate to any of the DAC measurements that Amir has taken.

One area where we might be able to match the measurements with what we hear is if a DAC has an adjustable output level, sometimes you can see in the measurements the distortion increase depending on how much VRMS is being output. Subjectively, this would result in some kind of a tape saturation like effect that is audible.

That said, most modern DACs, including the poorly measured Yggdrasil, still measure well enough that you will hear distortion from your transducers first as you go into higher loudness levels.

That's one of the things the speaker guys on ASR get. They recognize how silly it is to be wowed by a DAC that measures so well down to -150db when -120db works just as well. Again, that's because your first source of distortion will likely be from the transducers than it ever will be from a DAC.

When it comes to buying a DAC, you should buy it for the digital filter, because that is going to determine how it will sound for the most part. Other parts in the DAC less so, but stuff like the quality of the power supply and filtering does determine a large part of bass quality. Or the kind of opamps (or discrete) found in the analog output stage.

If you truly believe and experience that all the DACs sound the same, then just buy for the features you want or whatever is cheapest since it doesn't matter.

 

[RobS]

I've been a lurker for a while in audio forum sites and read your old threads there long time ago but settled here on ASR as the de facto home for my views/opinions about audio

atomicbob's measurements of the Convert-2 satisfy me enough that I don't think it's worth Amir's time to evaluate. I'd rather see Amir focus on other measurements and not DACs. Sure it would still be interesting, I just don't want to see him waste time on something we already have great results seen elsewhere.

 

[stevenswall]

Glad you figured this out earlier rather than later, maybe you can return the new DAC!

I had a Cowon Plenue, one of the $500+ ones with an "excellent" dac. While the measurements were great, it didn't audibly sound better, and the only DACs I can hear a difference between these days are some old iPads that couldn't power an Etymotic IEM to my relatively quiet volume level.

That and their EQ software introduced a ton of clipping and distortion like on the iPhone classic.

 

[Sukie]

If you truly believe and experience that all the DACs sound the same, then just buy for the features you want or whatever is cheapest since it doesn't matter.

Belief has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of science. The issue has been dealt with on this forum on far too many occasions.

You've clearly joined up to "educate" us on the nature of DACs. Thank you for your time but could I suggest that, unless you want to engage in a constructive manner, you kindly move on. Life is too short for rehashed arguments and petty point making.

 

[RobS]

Belief has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of science. The issue has been dealt with on this forum
on far too many occasions.

Many others, including myself, have experienced differences in how DACs sound, all things being equal. None of the existing measurements offer any insight into how that is.

And yes, the discourse on this board engenders such beliefs that "all DACs sound the same", using a limited set of measurements to reinforce such beliefs, and so on. From what I have seen here so far, the interpretations of the measurements barely reach the level of pop science, let alone science in a serious, rigorous manner.

 

[Killingbeans]

None of the excellent DAC measurements have any bearing on what we actually hear.

Again. You get the exact same kind of reasoning from the people who produce and sell the most silly snake-oil products out there. And their customers experience effects exactly as vividly as you do. The only difference being that they try to correlate the experiences to phenomena that are just as silly as the products themselves.

What gives you this unshakable confidence in correlating the disconnect between measurements and the things you hear with the things you do?

If you truly believe and experience that all the DACs sound the same, then just buy for the features you want or whatever is cheapest since it doesn't matter.

As in: "If you don't mind fooling yourself and/or have tin ears, that's cool. You can't all be as awesome as me."?

 

[Chromatischism]

Belief has nothing to do with it. It's a matter of science. The issue has been dealt with on this forum on far too many occasions.

You've clearly joined up to "educate" us on the nature of DACs. Thank you for your time but could I suggest that, unless you want to engage in a constructive manner, you kindly move on. Life is too short for rehashed arguments and petty point making.

This might not be popular to say but I believe he is conducting himself well enough and is on-topic, so I don't think he is out of line. We shouldn't be in the business of squelching those we disagree with unless there is some history of misinformation or misconduct. Hopefully we don't get to that point.

With that said, enough blind comparisons have been done that show people can't tell a difference between cheap and expensive DACs (that are well-designed), so I would question claims of "day and night" differences.