Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?

[Axo1989]

have you seen one in so-called 'real life'? The case alone must cost them several thousand dollars to have made. Then multiply that cost by 20 to get the sale price.

I mean the build quality is heroic. That's never going to sell for buttons and make money, especially as it's a low volume product.

prefer the look of the old Krell kit myself which you can now get fairly cheap s/h thanks to Class D taking over the market. And it's exactly the same as the new D'Augustino in practical sound quality terms and measures better too.

Hmmm, I haven't seen a pair of Krell Evolution monoblocs for less than AUD $25K yet, and they disappear quickly (and yes I also prefer the functional aesthetic to the steampunk look of the D'Agostino range).

Stereo models are more affordable, as are several earlier series. Shipping can be a bitch of a thing, of course. Drop-ship to ASR for a quick run on the AP en-route obviously, should our host foolishly agreed to man-handle them.

*and by foolishly I mean valiantly, of course.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Hmmm, I haven't seen a pair of Krell Evolution monoblocs for less than AUD $25K yet, and they disappear quickly (and yes I also prefer the functional aesthetic to the steampunk look of the D'Agostino range).

Stereo models are more affordable, as are several earlier series. Shipping can be a bitch of a thing, of course. Drop-ship to ASR for a quick run on the AP en-route obviously, should our host foolishly agreed to man-handle them.

*and by foolishly I mean valiantly, of course.

Hey! Are you guys trying to injure Amir? We will have none of that.

 

[Mart68]

Hmmm, I haven't seen a pair of Krell Evolution monoblocs for less than AUD $25K yet, and they disappear quickly (and yes I also prefer the functional aesthetic to the steampunk look of the D'Agostino range).

Stereo models are more affordable, as are several earlier series.

Yes I'm taking about the 80s and 90s Krells, but they're still perfectly serviceable and cheaper than a new Hypex or Purifi. Just a lot heavier!

 

[Spocko]

Yeah I mean this is really what it boils down to. The subjectivist straw man is that objectivists are all about chasing SINAD numbers and not musical enjoyment. That the chase is for "sterile" sound or whatever. That's not really what it is about. No one here actually cares if Topping's new amp measures 0.01% better than the last amp. We only care if the product does *NOT* measure well, in which case now we can make an educated decision to accept this "flavor" of distortion or not.

The objectivist strawman is that subjectivists trust their ears and don't care how equipment measures as long as it sounds great - the classic reason why Nelson Pass has been quoted as saying he's ok with audible levels of 2nd harmonic distortions if it adds "warmth" to his amps. But if adding distortion results in a product that "does *NOT* measure well," then how would our objectivist strawman respond to the "real" man, amplifier designer Nelson Pass?

 

[Spocko]

I don't think this is fair at all.

It may not be fair, but if you read the comments and threads on this forum either praising or complaining about SINAD scores and other measurements and their influence on whether somebody is considering a product for purchase - they now won't even give it an audition because it is not in the blue or green area. So on the one hand, we as consumers should absolutely buy what we find pleasant, but how do we know if we're missing out on something pleasant if we've already discounted it without a listen due to objective scores?

 

[Spocko]

This "warm" sound is a common claim. To date, no-one has ever shown it to actually exist. And despite having had lots of tube amps over the years, I can't think of a single one that actually sounded "warm." As an audio rationalist, I would put my money on it being a legend rather than reality.

"Even owners of technically accurate audio power amplifiers occasionally choose tube preamplifiers to "warm up" the sound," is a quote from this article written by Nelson Pass in his attempt at explaining how one can generate "warm" sounds through 2nd harmonic distortions.

 

[SuicideSquid]

It may not be fair, but if you read the comments and threads on this forum either praising or complaining about SINAD scores and other measurements and their influence on whether somebody is considering a product for purchase - they now won't even give it an audition because it is not in the blue or green area. So on the one hand, we as consumers should absolutely buy what we find pleasant, but how do we know if we're missing out on something pleasant if we've already discounted it without a listen due to objective scores?

Again, this is not fair.

A properly designed solid state class AB or class D amp will sound exactly the same as any other. This has been established so many times that it's simply not worth doing auditions anymore. Buy the one with the features and measurements to suit your needs and don't allow yourself to be fooled by psychoacoustics. Most of the people you're referring to acknowledge they probably can't hear a difference between these devices and are simply chasing engineering excellence for the sake of it, which is fine, and honest.

Tube amps and solid state amps measure differently in ways that are clearly audible, and listeners can tell them apart in blind ABX listening tests, so there's a purpose to comparing them with a listening test, if you're interested in a tube system.

There are three scenarios in the audio world where measurements and listening tests may come into play:

1. There is no measurable difference, audiophiles claim to hear a difference, and these claims disappear in blind ABX testing (best example: Cables). In this case, buy whatever, it doesn't matter.

2. There is a measureable difference, audiophiles claim to hear a difference, but it fall below the threshold of audibility and the claim to be able to hear a difference disappears in blind ABX testing (best example: solid state amplifiers). In this case, buy whatever meets your feature and performance targets, listening tests don't matter.

3. There is a measurable difference that is audible in blind ABX tests. In this case, buy whatever sounds best to you, regardless of whether it measures "better" or not, but acknowledge if you prefer the "objectively inferior" product, your preference doesn't reflect some magical unmeasurable property in the thing you like, but is merely an expression of your personal preferences. (Examples: Tube vs. solid state, vinyl vs. digital, 'flat' speakers vs. speakers with a 'house sound')

 

[sonitus mirus]

It may not be fair, but if you read the comments and threads on this forum either praising or complaining about SINAD scores and other measurements and their influence on whether somebody is considering a product for purchase - they now won't even give it an audition because it is not in the blue or green area. So on the one hand, we as consumers should absolutely buy what we find pleasant, but how do we know if we're missing out on something pleasant if we've already discounted it without a listen due to objective scores?

Getting a high SINAD score doesn't just happen randomly. There are so many well-engineered devices available. When I start looking for the right device, my first move is checking out the empirical data. I'll probably sift through a bunch of gadgets with high SINAD scores, but I've got more than just scores on my mind. I'm watching my budget, and I'm on the lookout for something that has the features I need and the style I like.

Even when I've got plenty of top-scoring options, I won't necessarily pick the one with the highest SINAD. If reviews aren't stellar, or if there's something sketchy about the company, I'm totally cool with considering something a bit further down the list or not even on the list. After all, making the right choice sometimes means looking beyond the score, but it generally serves as my staring point.

 

[rsoffer]

The objectivist strawman is that subjectivists trust their ears and don't care how equipment measures as long as it sounds great - the classic reason why Nelson Pass has been quoted as saying he's ok with audible levels of 2nd harmonic distortions if it adds "warmth" to his amps. But if adding distortion results in a product that "does *NOT* measure well," then how would our objectivist strawman respond to the "real" man, amplifier designer Nelson Pass?

Nah, that's what you believe objectivists care about - measurements vs. sounding great.

What objectivists believe about the subjectivist camp is that they trust their ears and impressions without verifying they're actually hearing those differences. For example, a clean solid state amp that costs $5000 sounding much better than a clean solid state amp that costs $500.

Adding distortion for a sonic purpose is all fine and good, and subjectivists will claim it's a night and day difference without blind testing. Could you identify said warmth in a blind test? If you can, great.

So now the strawman is that objectivists only care about minimizing distortion, when what we actually care about is verifying whether our subjective impressions are rooted in reality or purely confirmation bias.

 

[SuicideSquid]

what we actually care about is verifying whether our subjective impressions are rooted in reality or purely confirmation bias.

Beautifully said.

 

[Spocko]

Nah, that's what you believe objectivists care about - measurements vs. sounding great.

What objectivists believe about the subjectivist camp is that they trust their ears and impressions without verifying they're actually hearing those differences. For example, a clean solid state amp that costs $5000 sounding much better than a clean solid state amp that costs $500.

Adding distortion for a sonic purpose is all fine and good, and subjectivists will claim it's a night and day difference without blind testing. Could you identify said warmth in a blind test? If you can, great.

So now the strawman is that objectivists only care about minimizing distortion, when what we actually care about is verifying whether our subjective impressions are rooted in reality or purely confirmation bias.

It's not that I believe objectivists prioritize measurements over sounding great, but rather the realities of shopping for hifi gear. More likely, the hifi enthusiast objectivist would like to create a short list of possibilities, and they begin shopping by reading forums like this without the ability to do any blind testing comparisons at all - how do you create a short list when there's no easy way to blind test all the gear you're interested in?

You are correct in theory, because it would be great if we can blind test speakers and amps before commiting to a purchase, but I say theory because I have yet to see consumers going through the trouble of 3 different amplifiers or speakers, then creating an ABX comparison, then returning the other 2 to dealers willing to put up with this craziness.

 

[Axo1989]

Adding distortion for a sonic purpose is all fine and good, and subjectivists will claim it's a night and day difference without blind testing. Could you identify said warmth in a blind test? If you can, great.

Well, we had a comparison here recently that pitched a valve amp with high THD against a technically transparent device, and many posting here couldn't assign a consistent preference between the two via a blind AB (or ABX which was also possible via the software). The comparison files weren't perfect in capturing dynamics, but they did capture the distortion and noise ok. There were audible differences, and I could pick them as it turned out, but preferred the clearer sound. I could see someone having the other preference, however. And the putative dynamics as described were interesting (corresponding to measurements provided) so worth following up.

 

[solderdude]

Just imagine what the difference would have been if the poster would have actually used real speakers as a load.
In that case the tube amp would have sounded even brighter.
It became far more challenging after the frequency response differences were made smaller and only the distortion was the decisive factor.
Not all tube amps have audible roll-off like the one used in the test.

 

[Mart68]

It's not that I believe objectivists prioritize measurements over sounding great, but rather the realities of shopping for hifi gear. More likely, the hifi enthusiast objectivist would like to create a short list of possibilities, and they begin shopping by reading forums like this without the ability to do any blind testing comparisons at all - how do you create a short list when there's no easy way to blind test all the gear you're interested in?

You are correct in theory, because it would be great if we can blind test speakers and amps before commiting to a purchase, but I say theory because I have yet to see consumers going through the trouble of 3 different amplifiers or speakers, then creating an ABX comparison, then returning the other 2 to dealers willing to put up with this craziness.

enough blind testing has already been done that we're able to correlate measurements to what is audible. There's no need to do it again for each individual purchase.

And if you wanted to do it anyway - in EU/UK at least you can order the three sets of speakers (or three amps, or three DACs or whatever) on line, return them within 14 days for a full refund, no need to give a reason. The dealer doesn't get an option, he has to put up with 'This craziness' by law.

 

[threni]

enough blind testing has already been done that we're able to correlate measurements to what is audible. There's no need to do it again for each individual purchase.

And if you wanted to do it anyway - in EU/UK at least you can order the three sets of speakers (or three amps, or three DACs or whatever) on line, return them within 14 days for a full refund, no need to give a reason. The dealer doesn't get an option, he has to put up with 'This craziness' by law.

To be clear - this "full refund" does not (in the UK at least) include return postage (as you're returning it because you've decided you don't want it, not because it's faulty).

 

[Axo1989]

Just imagine what the difference would have been if the poster would have actually used real speakers as a load.
In that case the tube amp would have sounded even brighter.
It became far more challenging after the frequency response differences were made smaller and only the distortion was the decisive factor.
Not all tube amps have audible roll-off like the one used in the test.

I have no experience beyond the info in those threads, but matching valve (aka tube) amps with speakers appears to be a dark art. Not that some science wouldn't help.

Yes, it did, while I could hear noise and distortion (bass and treble respectively) in the first two comparisons, without the rolloff I wouldn't have picked the third easily, or at all.

 

[Mart68]

To be clear - this "full refund" does not (in the UK at least) include return postage (as you're returning it because you've decided you don't want it, not because it's faulty).

true but I'm not suggesting anyone do this or that it's necessary to do this. Just pointing out that you can if you want to. You don't need to find a dealer who will 'allow' you to do so.

 

[SIY]

"Even owners of technically accurate audio power amplifiers occasionally choose tube preamplifiers to "warm up" the sound," is a quote from this article written by Nelson Pass in his attempt at explaining how one can generate "warm" sounds through 2nd harmonic distortions.

Yes, Nelson has been very vocal about this evidence-free claim. And has, of course, also offered zero evidence, just assertion.

 

[rsoffer]

It's not that I believe objectivists prioritize measurements over sounding great, but rather the realities of shopping for hifi gear. More likely, the hifi enthusiast objectivist would like to create a short list of possibilities, and they begin shopping by reading forums like this without the ability to do any blind testing comparisons at all - how do you create a short list when there's no easy way to blind test all the gear you're interested in?

You are correct in theory, because it would be great if we can blind test speakers and amps before commiting to a purchase, but I say theory because I have yet to see consumers going through the trouble of 3 different amplifiers or speakers, then creating an ABX comparison, then returning the other 2 to dealers willing to put up with this craziness.

Many of us have done our own A/B tests and haven't been able to identify the night and day differences described by subjectivists. In this thread, I posted my own experience, you can view it here:

Why haven't subjectivists and objectivists met to do a live ABX test?

I did my first rapid volume matched A/B test today with a switcher. THX AAA One vs. Singxer SA-1. Op amp based AB amp vs. Discrete Class A. $150 vs. $600. Even sighted, they sound absolutely identical. It's pretty insane hahaha. The good news is, the 6XX are amazing and I'm just enjoying...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Having done this on my own, in conjunction with parsing over the available studies and literature on the topic, you get to a point where there's no reason to do A/B testing on every piece of gear. You just go with what makes sense, these amps simplify amplify the signal and most of them sound the same. It's up to the manufacturers, the reviewers, and whoever else claims they're hearing these night and day differences to show they can reliably pick up on them in blind testing. Not each individual consumer.

You don't see even one reviewer doing blind testing on video in a controlled way. Why do you think that is?

 

[Spkrdctr]

You don't see even one reviewer doing blind testing on video in a controlled way. Why do you think that is?

Financial gain. Always follow the money, same for all snake oil! The fact that a lot of reviewers end up with free gear and most (90% ?) of the viewers do not know that. They have to kiss the hands that feed them. So much scamming in audio, especially on YouTube......