Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[Axo1989]

Well, TBH, here is what you said in the post you put the tracks on, and what you said a few posts later:

… and that is why I asked my question about your objective: your “exact” statement, ie the first of your two slightly different quotes above, is vague and allusive. What you mentioned after “a casual comparison” was two technologies, as if it is a comparison of the technologies themselves. Well let me guarantee you, what you posted fails as a comparison of two technologies themselves, for reasons I put in my Possible Objective #2. After all, if you had put up a different song, the sonic differences might very well be reversed to what you posted, or completely different in many different ways, or might actually be sonically indistinguishable.

So I looked to your second, different, quote above, which merely and uselessly says it is possible to get the sonic difference that exists in the two versions of one random song-segment you uploaded, which matches my Possible Objective #1 and as I said, everyone already knows that without listening to anything….surely.

Hmm. Impossibly overambitious, or utterly pointless. No wonder I asked for clarification. And got brick-walled for my trouble. Thanks.

So here is what I think the discussion to your upload will look like: “I had a listen and I heard this, or I heard that.” Well, duh. Next. But it could get worse than merely pointless thread-lengthening: some comments might go along the lines of, “the vinyl sample sounds more natural (or whatever blah blah) in a way that I say is characteristic of the medium’s difference to digital.” Sounds familiar? In which case, your sample of 1 is, however unintentionally, feeding a myth, counter-constructive and misleading and all that goes with it. As I hinted might happen in my Possible Objective #2.

Cheers

Your #1 is incorrect: @IPunchCholla wrote "so people unfamiliar with vinyl can get a sense of how different it might be/the scale of the issue that has been ranted about for 100+ pages". Then I wrote "That's the first time I've actually compared vinyl sound (or a needle drop as they call it) to digital stream."

I mean shoot me for not being previously much into vinyl sonics I guess, but it was right in front of you. The samples illustrated some characteristics discussed upthread: surface noise, channel separation, mono and other bass characteristics, treble characteristics, etc. Knowing about these in theory (for me) is different from having a listen, recently enough for it to be meaningful. I'm also aware it's a single comparison intended to be informally illustrative, not a scientific study to determine characteristics of a statistically relevant sample. I thought it was interesting to hear "this or that" and see it reflected in straightforward measurements. Given those very things were being discussed, why not?

If you are being "brick-walled" it could also be because people don't appreciate being cast in black and white and ranted at. And if this is useless discussion which you've already done to death, why read it/post here?

 

[Grabby]

Why don't record engineers who believe that the mastering for vinyls (i.e. eq , rounding the base....etc,) just release the mix for vinyls in both vinyl and digital releases, if vinyl mixes are superior sonically (sound quality, warmer, more natural.....etc)? I'm just wondering. Wouldn't this make more sense, as you would be producing a superior product?

 

[MerlinGS]

This may be because my vinyl delivery system is of very high quality and that everything sounds good on there. I spent some dough and am love with my transducer, a Koetsu Black, a fine cart. I play digital mainly off my cheap DAP, but I love that thing too. Sounds outstanding, especially for DSD. But it only has 256GB of memory, so I've deleted many SACD rips (that were shootout losers) to save room but don't miss them at all. That space is reserved for albums where I don't have a clean vinyl copy.

Yes and no.

I am not a vinylphobe. My turntables range from an air-bearing turntable with a 70 lb platter, to modified DD Japanese turntables from the golden age, but the limitations of LPs are well established and there is nothing magical about LP reproduction.

Your preference most likely speaks more about your preference for the euphonics introduced by the Koestu transducer than it relates to high fidelity. Most if not all Koetsus are highly inaccurate transducers (have you ever seen a frequency response for the Black), they are not a good example of "high fidelity"; ergo your preference is likely related to your vinyl "delivery system," but it is not because it is "high quality", if the latter is defined as high fidelity.

A half decent, transparent digital reproduction system can be put together for less than $1000 (less than the cost of most of my cartridges). It will be of much higher fidelity than any turntable, tonearm, and cartridge combination (yes, I mean any system, regardless of price). If high fidelity were the sole pursuit in home audio, then turntables would only be used to reproduce LPs that have been mastered better than the digital versions or that are not available in a digital format (but then again, one could digitize them and reduce the need for turntables)

As I have stated before, I have what you may call a decent setup, so the above is not intended as an attack on personal preferences. Rather, this is an attempt at clarifying that the preferences frequently being stated are not related to high fidelity, but rather a partiality for colorations in reproduction. One can create a digital recording that is identical to the output of your turntable; i.e. the colorations can be replicated in digital format and are not an exclusive quality of turntable sound (not that you are suggesting otherwise). One advantage of the digital format is that if one chooses to do so, one can alter their digital setup (through DSP) to sound like an LP without many of the issues of turntables (e.g. wear and tear, upkeep of records and cartridges, etc.); in contrast, one could never get a turntable to reproduce a recording as transparently as a digital-based system.

Ironically, there may be a market for producing digital recordings that are hamstrung by introducing some of the limitations of LPs into their masters, they just have to be marketed as "higher fidelity digital, the recordings perfectly match the best LP masters".

 

[IPunchCholla]

Well, TBH, here is what you said in the post you put the tracks on, and what you said a few posts later:




… and that is why I asked my question about your objective: your “exact” statement, ie the first of your two slightly different quotes above, is vague and allusive. What you mentioned after “a casual comparison” was two technologies, as if it is a comparison of the technologies themselves. Well let me guarantee you, what you posted fails as a comparison of two technologies themselves, for reasons I put in my Possible Objective #2. After all, if you had put up a different song, the sonic differences might very well be reversed to what you posted, or completely different in many different ways, or might actually be sonically indistinguishable.

So I looked to your second, different, quote above, which merely and uselessly says it is possible to get the sonic difference that exists in the two versions of one random song-segment you uploaded, which matches my Possible Objective #1 and as I said, everyone already knows that without listening to anything….surely.

Hmm. Impossibly overambitious, or utterly pointless. No wonder I asked for clarification. And got brick-walled for my trouble. Thanks.

So here is what I think the discussion to your upload will look like: “I had a listen and I heard this, or I heard that.” Well, duh. Next. But it could get worse than merely pointless thread-lengthening: some comments might go along the lines of, “the vinyl sample sounds more natural (or whatever blah blah) in a way that I say is characteristic of the medium’s difference to digital.” Sounds familiar? In which case, your sample of 1 is, however unintentionally, feeding a myth, counter-constructive and misleading and all that goes with it. As I hinted might happen in my Possible Objective #2.

Cheers

Again, you are making everything very black and white and extrapolating lot to get pretty worked up over what is really pretty simple. I posted two tracks so people unfamiliar with vinyl could get a simple single data point about the amount of differences we are talking about, at least a generalizable notion of the scale of the issue in a thread with a lot of hyperbole on both sides. Kinda of a hear is a totally off the cuff comparison, if your experience intrigues you, you can hopefully research more.

It wasn’t trying to do either of your false binary.

And no. No cheers. Your over the top aggression is not interesting to me. So good-bye.

 

[MattHooper]

Well, TBH, here is what you said in the post you put the tracks on, and what you said a few posts later:




… and that is why I asked my question about your objective: your “exact” statement, ie the first of your two slightly different quotes above, is vague and allusive. What you mentioned after “a casual comparison” was two technologies, as if it is a comparison of the technologies themselves. Well let me guarantee you, what you posted fails as a comparison of two technologies themselves, for reasons I put in my Possible Objective #2. After all, if you had put up a different song, the sonic differences might very well be reversed to what you posted, or completely different in many different ways, or might actually be sonically indistinguishable.

So I looked to your second, different, quote above, which merely and uselessly says it is possible to get the sonic difference that exists in the two versions of one random song-segment you uploaded, which matches my Possible Objective #1 and as I said, everyone already knows that without listening to anything….surely.

Hmm. Impossibly overambitious, or utterly pointless. No wonder I asked for clarification. And got brick-walled for my trouble. Thanks.

So here is what I think the discussion to your upload will look like: “I had a listen and I heard this, or I heard that.” Well, duh. Next. But it could get worse than merely pointless thread-lengthening: some comments might go along the lines of, “the vinyl sample sounds more natural (or whatever blah blah) in a way that I say is characteristic of the medium’s difference to digital.” Sounds familiar? In which case, your sample of 1 is, however unintentionally, feeding a myth, counter-constructive and misleading and all that goes with it. As I hinted might happen in my Possible Objective #2.

Cheers

And in the category of Some People You Can Never Please ^^^^

Yeesh. It was just a posting of some audio files to compare, which a number of us had fun doing. (Thank you for taking the time, IPunchCholla!)

If this thread is too long for you, here's a suggestion: you could stop reading it, and stop lengthening it by contributing to it.

It's not like yet another long grouchy rant like that contributed anything new or useful to the thread.

What is it about even discussing vinyl that triggers some people so aggressively? It's bizarre, frankly. Threads about vinyl for some folks here remind me of that quote about twitter I just read: It's a place where people will always interpret things in the way that annoys them the most.

 

[drewdawg999]

Your preference most likely speaks more about your preference for the euphonics introduced by the Koestu transducer than it relates to high fidelity. Most if not all Koetsus are highly inaccurate transducers (have you ever seen a frequency response for the Black), they are not a good example of "high fidelity"; ergo your preference is likely related to your vinyl "delivery system," but it is not because it is "high quality", if the latter is defined as high fidelity.

That's fair, I guess I'm not necessarily after absolute fidelity. I'm more after what brings me most pleasure and fun, and if that's through euphonic distortions, so be it. I also have a tube preamp (frowned upon in these parts), but it's served me very well for years and I've rolled the tubes for maximum bass. I've tried plugging my cheapo DAC straight into my power amp and found the results lacking, a bit flat and boring. Plenty of detail, but overly clinical in my book. So the preamp stays as does the DAP, which offers similar performance to my laptop + DAC. But whatever the Koetsu is doing, I love it, it brings me aural pleasures. I think Sugano-san had it tuned right for lushness and musicality, especially in the midrange. If that strays from fidelity, that's alright in my book, and doesn't necessarily mean it lacks quality. I've heard a mastering engineer (the legendary Bernie Grundman) say that he doesn't aim for a flat FR, but rather does what he can to bring out the "quality" of the recording. What quality in music is I suppose comes down to personal preference.

My DAC is on headphone duty for late nights, where it does its job admirably. So I'm not one or the other here, I enjoy both digital and vinyl. (Either/or is 4 choices.) But have laptop, will surf. I find it interesting that digital serves as background music most of the time, while vinyl can hold my full attention and I can close my eyes and just sit there and listen closely. Though listening to tunes and perusing this site is a nice pleasure, it does take away from the music somewhat. We live in a multitasking world of information overload, and one who just sits and listens to music is considered by some to be a bored, simple idiot. But I am that idiot. Music is my life and my wife.

As I have stated before, I have what you may call a decent setup, so the above is not intended as an attack on personal preferences. Rather, this is an attempt at clarifying that the preferences frequently being stated are not related to high fidelity, but rather a partiality for colorations in reproduction. One can create a digital recording that is identical to the output of your turntable; i.e. the colorations can be replicated in digital format and are not an exclusive quality of turntable sound (not that you are suggesting otherwise). One advantage of the digital format is that if one chooses to do so, one can alter their digital setup (through DSP) to sound like an LP without many of the issues of turntables (e.g. wear and tear, upkeep of records and cartridges, etc.); in contrast, one could never get a turntable to reproduce a recording as transparently as a digital-based system.

Ironically, there may be a market for producing digital recordings that are hamstrung by introducing some of the limitations of LPs into their masters, they just have to be marketed as "higher fidelity digital, the recordings perfectly match the best LP masters".

Okay, clarification noted. But why do you even bother with vinyl then? Beyond nostalgia and large artwork and being a tweaker's paradise, surely it sounds better than a bag of farts. Must bring you at least some aural pleasures. I was listening to Eric Clapton Unplugged today, I have the new MoFi SACD rip and the old Pallas pressing ripped to DSD256... I was not expecting there to be much difference, and actually wanted to like the MoFi rip better since it's a digital recording, but I did not. The vinyl rip sounded better, more alive (which is big for a live recording) with more presence and fullness, without sacrificing detail. So yeah the euphonics were captured digitally and I preferred it over the all digital chain, but perhaps the MoFi is flatter and more faithful to the original recording? If that's what higher fidelity is, it's not spectacular sounding, and thus not my preference.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I find it interesting that digital serves as background music most of the time, while vinyl can hold my full attention and I can close my eyes and just sit there and listen closely. Though listening to tunes and perusing this site is a nice pleasure, it does take away from the music somewhat. We live in a multitasking world of information overload, and one who just sits and listens to music is considered by some to be a bored, simple idiot. But I am that idiot.

That is also exactly my experience, enjoying both my digital and vinyl source. Both sound great. But more often than not, for reasons I cannot explain, my mind drift a lot more when listening to files than when listening to records.
My vinyl set up as a better ability to get me into the music, without efforts, my digital files makes it harder to get involved. That is when being an idiot, just seating there listening to music.
For background and listening while doing something else, I cannot hear a difference between both media.

 

[drewdawg999]

That is also exactly my experience, enjoying both my digital and vinyl source. Both sound great. But more often than not, for reasons I cannot explain, my mind drift a lot more when listening to files than when listening to records.
My vinyl set up as a better ability to get me into the music, without efforts, my digital files makes it harder to get involved. That is when being an idiot, just seating there listening to music.
For background and listening while doing something else, I cannot hear a difference between both media.

Yeah, strange phenomenon, isn't it? Though as background, digital is much more convenient especially while cooking or eating. The washing of hands to do a side change is just a big pain. I like to treat my vinyl listening as a concert, an ephemeral performance, focus on every detail, feel the changes, and absorb all the emotion with reverence. Some people talk over music, even at concerts, where they also surf on their phones. Why? I find that disrespectful. Jury's out on singing along as well, I mean active participation is nice and all, but it takes away from close listening. But yeah, I have no explanation either why it's harder to focus and give full attention to digital. Even in my listening room on the big system without laptop, more often than not, I'll reach for that damned phone and surf away.

 

[MattHooper]

Same here. As I've mentioned before, for my vinyl playback is like leaving the ipads, phones, laptops, kindles etc to curl up on a sofa with a real book in hand. I recently read two different biographies on a band - one hardcover, the other I could only get digitally to read on my ipad. I enjoyed the physical book reading experience more.

My attention is constantly being tugged to screens all day long and, rather than interacting with yet another digital screen (for streaming digital) vinyl is a chance to unplug from digital life for a while. I find it feels very healthy in that way.

 

[Digicile]

Yeah, strange phenomenon, isn't it? Though as background, digital is much more convenient especially while cooking or eating. The washing of hands to do a side change is just a big pain. I like to treat my vinyl listening as a concert, an ephemeral performance, focus on every detail, feel the changes, and absorb all the emotion with reverence. Some people talk over music, even at concerts, where they also surf on their phones. Why? I find that disrespectful. Jury's out on singing along as well, I mean active participation is nice and all, but it takes away from close listening. But yeah, I have no explanation either why it's harder to focus and give full attention to digital. Even in my listening room on the big system without laptop, more often than not, I'll reach for that damned phone and surf away.

I have noticed that too that my mind wanders faster to something unrelated while streaming, while I concentrate more with vinyl. Maybe it has to do with the effort of putting the disc on the turntable or something, or knowing I'm going to need to get up in 20 minutes to change sides.

I stream for more time than I play vinyl but while I cite what I like about vinyl, when I play some digital there is nothing that stands out. It is boring perfectness. Great for what it is, but not special. I tend to be able to remember the albums I've played on vinyl for quite a while but if you ask me what I streamed yesterday I most likely could not tell you.

 

[Holmz]

This looks mostly, possibly, like it’s a back to front mix up of cause and effect??

Yeah, strange phenomenon, isn't it? Though as background, digital is much more convenient especially while cooking or eating. The washing of hands to do a side change is just a big pain. I like to treat my vinyl listening as a concert, an ephemeral performance, focus on every detail, feel the changes, and absorb all the emotion with reverence.
…

There is it… “Reverence.”

…
Some people talk over music, even at concerts, where they also surf on their phones. Why? I find that disrespectful. …

… But yeah, I have no explanation either why it's harder to focus and give full attention to digital. …

It could be that you are giving full attention to the vinyl?
I find that I have the same inattention happen, but I assumed it was because I had the iPad or iPhone in hand, and that it was easier to surf.

… Even in my listening room on the big system without laptop, more often than not, I'll reach for that damned phone and surf away.

Maybe you’re right. (I do the same.)
But it is entirely possible that the psychology of the reverence, makes us listen harder and more attentively.

 

[Cote Dazur]

But it is entirely possible that the psychology of the reverence, makes us listen harder and more attentively.

Yes, entirely possible, but what ever the reason that makes the experience more enjoyable, which of course would be great to know, the important point is the result. For some of us, listening to music with records makes the experience more rewarding.
And if some are into this hobby as an experience in trying different sound, let’s hope the majority is in the high fidelity hobby as a way to get closer to the music, I know I am and listening with a TT is an important part of my music enjoyment.

 

[deweydm]

This guy gets it: “They f*#k it [digital] up on purpose.”

 

[Digicile]

This looks mostly, possibly, like it’s a back to front mix up of cause and effect??



There is it… “Reverence.”







It could be that you are giving full attention to the vinyl?
I find that I have the same inattention happen, but I assumed it was because I had the iPad or iPhone in hand, and that it was easier to surf.




Maybe you’re right. (I do the same.)
But it is entirely possible that the psychology of the reverence, makes us listen harder and more attentively.

It could be part of all of these things, and probably is. But really, how does this matter? I'm not into naval gazing and worrying about every detail and motive of why I like something. It just doesn't matter! I like vinyl, both for myself and as a social sharing activity. That is all that matters, and it is not open to debate.

 

[pablolie]

It could be part of all of these things, and probably is. But really, how does this matter? I'm not into naval gazing and worrying about every detail and motive of why I like something. It just doesn't matter! I like vinyl, both for myself and as a social sharing activity. That is all that matters, and it is not open to debate.

I completely respect your preference for the experience and ritual. But that's not an argument for "sounding better".

We could debate what "sounding better" means, of course, but we can factually agree that:

1. Vinyl records have a *way* inferior SNR by nature (recording engineers' occasional incompetence left aside)
2. Vinyl records deteriorate over time... very quickly if not taking painstaking care of

I do not mind anyone ever having a preference. In many areas, it's fun to debate. Tuscany versus Priorat wines. IWC vs Panerai diver mechanical watches. But I mind when personal preference becomes an evangelist journey to demean others' choices that are equally valid at a personal preference level.

So ... *NO*... records in no way ever sound "better" than digital. They may sound different and power to all of you that prefer it.

I grew up with vinyl and was glad to get rid of it.

 

[Digicile]

I completely respect your preference for the experience and ritual. But that's not an argument for "sounding better".

We could debate what "sounding better" means, of course, but we can factually agree that:

1. Vinyl records have a *way* inferior SNR by nature (recording engineers' occasional incompetence left aside)
2. Vinyl records deteriorate over time... very quickly if not taking painstaking care of

I do not mind anyone ever having a preference. In many areas, it's fun to debate. Tuscany versus Priorat wines. IWC vs Panerai diver mechanical watches. But I mind when personal preference becomes an evangelist journey to demean others' choices that are equally valid at a personal preference level.

So ... *NO*... records in no way ever sound "better" than digital. They may sound different and power to all of you that prefer it.

I grew up with vinyl and was glad to get rid of it.

Excuse me - where did you ever read that I said that vinyl 'sounds better' except for ME? What is your problem? Honestly, this forum is the only place where I could say that I prefer the color RED and people would expend bandwidth trying to tell me that that is wrong and cannot possibly be the "best" color to like. Personally, I'm getting pretty sick of you dudes and the petty sniping. I was hoping to share experiences and gain knowledge. Obviously I'm not going to get it from the likes of you. If you don't like vinyl, then DON'T USE IT. Is that such a difficult concept. Old men. Yuch.

 

[pablolie]

Excuse me - where did you ever read that I said that vinyl 'sounds better' except for ME? What is your problem? Honestly, this forum is the only place where I could say that I prefer the color RED and people would expend bandwidth trying to tell me that that is wrong and cannot possibly be the "best" color to like. Personally, I'm getting pretty sick of you dudes and the petty sniping. I was hoping to share experiences and gain knowledge. Obviously I'm not going to get it from the likes of you. If you don't like vinyl, then DON'T USE IT. Is that such a difficult concept. Old men. Yuch.

I did clearly state I totally understand and support personal preferences.

 

[Digicile]

I did clearly state I totally understand and support personal preferences.

Gee, should I thank you? I feel so humbled. Go away dude.

 

[IPunchCholla]

I completely respect your preference for the experience and ritual. But that's not an argument for "sounding better".

We could debate what "sounding better" means, of course, but we can factually agree that:

1. Vinyl records have a *way* inferior SNR by nature (recording engineers' occasional incompetence left aside)
2. Vinyl records deteriorate over time... very quickly if not taking painstaking care of

I do not mind anyone ever having a preference. In many areas, it's fun to debate. Tuscany versus Priorat wines. IWC vs Panerai diver mechanical watches. But I mind when personal preference becomes an evangelist journey to demean others' choices that are equally valid at a personal preference level.

So ... *NO*... records in no way ever sound "better" than digital. They may sound different and power to all of you that prefer it.

I grew up with vinyl and was glad to get rid of it.

I think the word "better" might be at the core of many of the issues with this thread. Some might use it as "I enjoy the overall experience of listening to vinyl more than the overall experience of listening to digital sources." Is it unreasonable to say "I like vinyl more" as a synonym for "Vinyl sounds better"? It has been my take away that many here are using "better" in this sense and me not being a prescriptivist when it comes to language am fine with that.

I also understand the frustration of the many on here who read "Vinyl sounds better" (almost always followed by (to me)) and understand that to be "Vinyl is technically better". That is also a legitimate reading and one that would also bother me because it is incorrect.

I think perhaps it would be best to talk about the sound of digital and vinyl in terms of transparency and/or distortion. Digital is more transparent and closer to the recording than vinyl. We could then separate out the sound from the experience of listening to music. The experience of listening to vinyl can be better for someone.

 

[Cote Dazur]

But that's not an argument for "sounding better".

If the definition of sounding better is measuring better, then yes, we all know what measure better. Is what measure better what we prefer? Not always, but then what we prefer is to us sounding better.
You say you understand personal preference, so, surely you understand some hi fi enthousiast prefer vinyl as a better sounding option in the way it yields to them a more rewarding music listening experience.