Why do records sound so much better than digital?

[antcollinet]

I've just unwatched this thread - hopefully I'll be able to stay away.

Utterly pointless.

 

[fpitas]

Let's put that into a bit broader perspective. Revenue data from https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HOG/harley-davidson/revenue
View attachment 222736

Google sez:

View attachment 222738
I'll refrain from trying to pull this on topic, because I think SINAD wise, many folks would rank HOG rather low.
Their e-bikes are coming, though, so there could be hope. I don't think AMF is still around to buy 'em again (are they)?

Nope. AMF got purchased and pulled apart by speculators. Most working divisions were in turn bought by their management (Bowling, Paragon Timers, Wyatt Food Division, Tubeoscope etc). I worked at the AMF research lab in Sterling VA when the whole thing went down. My first design job!

 

[mhardy6647]

Nope. AMF got purchased and pulled apart by speculators. Most working divisions were in turn bought by their management (Bowling, Paragon Timers, Wyatt Food Division, Tubeoscope etc). I worked at the AMF research lab in Sterling VA when the whole thing went down. My first design job!

Remarkable! Thanks for sharing that.
It is amazing the random connections that pop up on the internet.
Perhaps with 7-ish billion human beings, I shouldn't be so surprised, though.

 

[fpitas]

Remarkable! Thanks for sharing that.
It is amazing the random connections that pop up on the internet.
Perhaps with 7-ish billion human beings, I shouldn't be so surprised, though.

AMF corporate worked hard at their own demise. It was my first inside glimpse at corporate America. Very eye-opening.

 

[mhardy6647]

AMF corporate worked hard at their own demise. It was my first inside glimpse at corporate America. Very eye-opening.

An unfortunately common problem (at least in the US -- maybe throughout the for-profit world, I don't know).

I am sure this subtopic could be readily adapted to the Leitmotif of this thread, but I am neither caffeinated enough nor motivated enough to mine that vein.

 

[levimax]

Normalization won't work quite as well in this case. Peaks are a bit different and that is what normalization will work off of.

Maybe I use the wrong word i.e. "normalization" but you bring up a good point. I looked and could not find documentation on how exactly Foobar ABX does it's "level match" but I am guessing it uses the same method as "replay gain" which matches "loudness" which is better the "normalization". I do a lot of ABX between different mastering's and the ABX plugin seems to level match quite well.

 

[odarg64]

Alcort. My favorite AMF division in the 70s.

 

[fpitas]

Alcort. My favorite AMF division in the 70s.

I never did work for them. Maybe not much electronics there.

 

[odarg64]

I never did work for them. Maybe not much electronics there.

Not in the small boats.

Maybe in the AMF Paceship division.

 

[levimax]

For people that want to hear some more examples of LP's vs digital I put together some level matched samples of LP's vs CD version of some songs awhile ago and they are linked below. I think there is something for everyone here as since the LP samples are all from "original pressings" there is more noise on the LP samples so if you hate noise you will hate them. On the other hand some of them are pretty close and what people prefer is hard to say. I think the most interesting one is "Cry Me a River". This was a very popular song in the late 1950's originally recorded by Julie London. The LP sample is from an original 1950's LP which has quite a bit of surface noise and the digital sample is the best CD version I could find but clearly something happened to the tapes between pressing the LP and the digital transfer as all the high frequency was lost. For me I definitely prefer the original LP version with the HF intact but if you really hate noise you may actually prefer the version with no HF. I enjoy experiencing the history of recorded music and it's technology over time so I will usually try to find both the original LP and a good digital transfer of my favorite older music. Probably not rational or practical but interesting and entertaining to me.

https://app.box.com/s/lw45ycogmbc8fg14m6sppaelzyj4nisk

 

[odarg64]

For people that want to hear some more examples of LP's vs digital I put together some level matched samples of LP's vs CD version of some songs awhile ago and they are linked below. I think there is something for everyone here as since the LP samples are all from "original pressings" there is more noise on the LP samples so if you hate noise you will hate them. On the other hand some of them are pretty close and what people prefer is hard to say. I think the most interesting one is "Cry Me a River". This was a very popular song in the late 1950's originally recorded by Julie London. The LP sample is from an original 1950's LP which has quite a bit of surface noise and the digital sample is the best CD version I could find but clearly something happened to the tapes between pressing the LP and the digital transfer as all the high frequency was lost. For me I definitely prefer the original LP version with the HF intact but if you really hate noise you may actually prefer the version with no HF. I enjoy experiencing the history of recorded music and it's technology over time so I will usually try to find both the original LP and a good digital transfer of my favorite older music. Probably not rational or practical but interesting and entertaining to me.

https://app.box.com/s/lw45ycogmbc8fg14m6sppaelzyj4nisk

I was a big fan of Julie London's later work. KMG365.

 

[rdenney]

An unfortunately common problem (at least in the US -- maybe throughout the for-profit world, I don't know).

I am sure this subtopic could be readily adapted to the Leitmotif of this thread, but I am neither caffeinated enough nor motivated enough to mine that vein.

Read about Carl Zeiss Jena, and you'll realize that it isn't just about U.S. corporations, or about profit. It's about people running companies who don't care about the products they make and sell, versus those who do. I just wish the market would reward the latter more consistently. Government certainly will not.

Rick "not caring about products versus production/sales is a repeating theme in audio, and bears on the recorded-music quality issue broadly" Denney

 

[Sokel]

When everyone else has finished playing you should not play any notes you have left.

(apply everywhere)

 

[MattHooper]

In case anyone wants to hear what this whole effing kerfuffle of a thread is about, here is a link to two Flac files. One is from Apple Music (streaming 16bit/44.1kHz). The other is from vinyl. For the digital file it was recorded in Audition via the loopback function of my Scarlet 4i4. The vinyl was recorded in Audition with the same ADC. All settings in Audition were identical. The path was Technics SL-QD33 ($80 + $30 for a new needle. Realistic 1500xr MM cartridge). Everything else stock. The Phono Pre is Cambridge Audio Alva Solo, this fed to the Scarlet 4i4. Digitally I increased the gain on the vinyl by about 7dB and decreased it on the digital track to get the peaks about roughly the same so they could be compared at similar listening levels. This isn't meant to be a definitive test, but rather just a casual comparison Apple lossless against a pretty humble TT and phono stage. I think the audio differences are pretty clear. I also think that the differences are pretty unimportant in the scheme of things. But you can listen and decide for yourself.

I didn't pick the track for any other reason than that it was the album that was on my TT and I really like it.

I just listened again.

1. Maybe it's because I mostly listened on my desktop, but I'm not hearing a sonic quality difference I care much about. Both files sound fine to me.
So for instance, if I liked that music and had the choice between the digital or vinyl version, I'd likely choose the vinyl version because I enjoy playing records usually more than streaming digital. And I'd have nice sound quality either way.

2. For all the talk of dreaded "background noise" I'm not hearing any objectionable noise during the music on the vinyl file. Is anyone else?
This is consistent with my general experience playing vinyl. Even when I hear some noise in between tracks, I very rarely actually hear noise when the music is playing since it's masked by the music if it's there. Which is why the vinyl noise thing for me is overblown. (I do tend to buy new vinyl or older vinyl in the best condition I can get - because yes if a record is noisy enough to hear through the music I don't like that).

 

[IPunchCholla]

I just listened again.

1. Maybe it's because I mostly listened on my desktop, but I'm not hearing a sonic quality difference I care much about. Both files sound fine to me.
So for instance, if I liked that music and had the choice between the digital or vinyl version, I'd likely choose the vinyl version because I enjoy playing records usually more than streaming digital. And I'd have nice sound quality either way.

2. For all the talk of dreaded "background noise" I'm not hearing any objectionable noise during the music on the vinyl file. Is anyone else?
This is consistent with my general experience playing vinyl. Even when I hear some noise in between tracks, I very rarely actually hear noise when the music is playing since it's masked by the music if it's there. Which is why the vinyl noise thing for me is overblown. (I do tend to buy new vinyl or older vinyl in the best condition I can get - because yes if a record is noisy enough to hear through the music I don't like that).

I can hear differences in the high frequencies as well, but also for me, I actually like those differences. The other thing that really stands out to me is in the opening bit, the very faint drums on the right channel are much more distinct and clear in the streaming source, probably this is due to the masked surface noise of the vinyl itself masking the drums a bit. Again, I don't find the differences to be a huge deal, just noticeable. Its not like it is un-enjoyable to listen to either. If others find it painful to listen to one, I guess I feel mostly pity that they have to live like that. It just seems super limiting to have to only listen to perfect fidelity in order to enjoy music.

 

[mhardy6647]

When everyone else has finished playing you should not play any notes you have left.

(apply everywhere)

 

[Axo1989]

I just listened again.

1. Maybe it's because I mostly listened on my desktop, but I'm not hearing a sonic quality difference I care much about. Both files sound fine to me.
So for instance, if I liked that music and had the choice between the digital or vinyl version, I'd likely choose the vinyl version because I enjoy playing records usually more than streaming digital. And I'd have nice sound quality either way.

2. For all the talk of dreaded "background noise" I'm not hearing any objectionable noise during the music on the vinyl file. Is anyone else?
This is consistent with my general experience playing vinyl. Even when I hear some noise in between tracks, I very rarely actually hear noise when the music is playing since it's masked by the music if it's there. Which is why the vinyl noise thing for me is overblown. (I do tend to buy new vinyl or older vinyl in the best condition I can get - because yes if a record is noisy enough to hear through the music I don't like that).

That's the first time I've actually compared vinyl sound (or a needle drop as they call it) to digital stream.

With noise-cancelling on AirPods Max the surface noise was certainly audible, but didn't interrupt listening once the music started. With regular wired Sonys I had to turn it up a bit more as ambient noise masked things. I wouldn't expect that degree of surface noise to be an impediment to pleasure.

An overall difference in sound was certainly apparent. After listening for a bit (and hearing what I described upthread) I checked the waveforms:

Spoiler: Track 1

Spoiler: Track 2

The overall levels are a bit low for a good waveform image. And I had to turn them up to match playing the track via Apple Music (once I figured out it wasn't actual Radiohead, but their side project The Smile).

The reduced channel separation I heard on the vinyl is visible. The cymbal attack (which introduces the right channel after a minute) on the digital track is also rather different. The vinyl is not only fatter in the bass (which I heard immediately, doesn't really show in the waveform view) but more mellow in the transients.

I can see someone preferring the vinyl sound. Personally I agree with some of @IPunchCholla's observations. I like the better articulation and clarity of the digital, but I enjoyed the fatter bass of the vinyl on this track (I don't necessarily need bass to be mono though). I don't know how much these difference generalise, but it was pretty interesting, thanks again for the comparison.

Edit: zoomed the waveform images 2x

 

[JP]

In case anyone wants to hear what this whole effing kerfuffle of a thread is about, here is a link to two Flac files. One is from Apple Music (streaming 16bit/44.1kHz). The other is from vinyl. For the digital file it was recorded in Audition via the loopback function of my Scarlet 4i4. The vinyl was recorded in Audition with the same ADC. All settings in Audition were identical. The path was Technics SL-QD33 ($80 + $30 for a new needle. Realistic 1500xr MM cartridge). Everything else stock. The Phono Pre is Cambridge Audio Alva Solo, this fed to the Scarlet 4i4. Digitally I increased the gain on the vinyl by about 7dB and decreased it on the digital track to get the peaks about roughly the same so they could be compared at similar listening levels. This isn't meant to be a definitive test, but rather just a casual comparison Apple lossless against a pretty humble TT and phono stage. I think the audio differences are pretty clear. I also think that the differences are pretty unimportant in the scheme of things. But you can listen and decide for yourself.

I didn't pick the track for any other reason than that it was the album that was on my TT and I really like it.

 

[IPunchCholla]

That's the first time I've actually compared vinyl sound (or a needle drop as they call it) to digital stream.

With nose-cancelling on AirPods Max the surface noise was certainly audible, but didn't interrupt listening once the music started. With regular wired Sonys I had to turn it up a bit more as ambient noise masked things. I wouldn't expect that degree of surface noise to be an impediment to pleasure.

An overall difference in sound was certainly apparent. After listening for a bit (and hearing what I described upthread) I checked the waveforms:

Spoiler: Track 1

View attachment 223396

Spoiler: Track 2

View attachment 223397

The overall levels are a bit low for a good waveform image. And I had to turn them up to match playing the track via Apple Music (once I figured out it wasn't actual Radiohead, but their side project The Smile).

The reduced channel separation I heard on the vinyl is visible. The cymbal attack (which introduces the right channel after a minute) on the digital track is also rather different. The vinyl is not only fatter in the bass (which I heard immediately, doesn't really show in the waveform view) but more mellow in the transients.

I can see someone preferring the vinyl sound. Personally I agree with some of @IPunchCholla's observations. I like the better articulation and clarity of the digital, but I enjoyed the fatter bass of the vinyl on this track (I don't necessarily need bass to be mono though). I don't know how much these difference generalise, but it was pretty interesting, thanks again for the comparison.

Yeah, in the end the normalization pulled down the digital stream and pushed up the vinyl recording. the main reason for this is that my digital interface is balanced while my phono stage is single ended, so their is a minimum 6dB drop on the vinyl just from that. The other thing I'm wondering about is that the run from the phono stage to my interface is a good 10 feet. Is that enough to effect transients?

 

[IPunchCholla]

View attachment 223398

Is a track 1 and b track 2?