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Why bass management makes my life tedious

witwald

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...two cascading filters can have phase consequences unless they have identical characteristics - and that is not certain when it comes to the AVR. Some receivers have 18db per octave LPF on the LFE, and others have 24db per octave.
I guess that I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here. I would have expected that even a second, identical filter to have an effect on the phase response of the signal. In the case of identical filters, wouldn't the second filter just result in a doubling of the group delay? This is still a phase shift. The total phase shift in a signal that has been filtered by 24dB/octave then 24dB/octave is only a little greater than that of the same signal if it underwent 24dB/octave filtering followed by 18dB/octave filtering.
 
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ernestcarl

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... does not provide context at all. Lastly, measurements in isolation cannot provide proof of audibility without taking into consideration the masking effects of ALL the channels combined...

Eh, what?

When did I argue that my particular bass and LFE management presets in JRiver were an industry/consumer standard? Sure, the video clip is a mere paltry sample of one (1). But, sorry, I did not recall you specifically mentioning to me you need x number of samples in order for something to count/compute as extant in this universe.

Not sure how you could have missed it...

But, it is right there in front of the annotated image: "EXTREMELY AUDIBLE EVEN WITH ALL CHANNELS PLAYING SIMULTANEOUSLY".

I could easily just as record the audio with/out all channels playing from my home theatre if so desired -- then again, I doubt that that sample of one (1) to advance "my point" / "agenda" would be of any value to you.
 

Soundmixer

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When did I argue that my particular bass and LFE management presets in JRiver were an industry/consumer standard? Sure, the video clip is a mere paltry sample of one (1). But, sorry, I did not recall you specifically mentioning to me you need x number of samples in order for something to count/compute as extant in this universe.


I don't think I said anything about an industry standard, I was speaking about what the average consumer uses.


But, it is right there in front of the annotated image: "EXTREMELY AUDIBLE EVEN WITH ALL CHANNELS PLAYING SIMULTANEOUSLY".

There is no context to this graph. Without showing what the other channels are actually doing, a graph cannot say anything is audible in isolation. You are forwarding that comment without actually demonstrating it is true. I listened on the disc to that very clip on two systems, and I could not detect any LFE "garbage", and I know exactly what it sounds like. Just because you make a notation, does not mean it is true.


I could easily just as record the audio with/out all channels playing from my home theatre if so desired -- then again, I doubt that that sample of one (1) to advance "my point" / "agenda" would be of any value to you.


Even a sample of six would not be of value (nor make your point) since all of the output of the speakers would be mixed together (perceptual masking in full effect). I already heard this segment on disc in my own HT's, and I could not hear any "garbage" coming from the LFE.
 
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Soundmixer

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I guess that I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here. I would have expected that even a second, identical filter to have an effect on the phase response of the signal. In the case of identical filters, wouldn't the second filter just result in a doubling of the group delay? This is still a phase shift. The total phase shift in a signal that has been filtered by 24dB/octave then 24dB/octave is only a little greater than that of the same signal if it underwent 24dB/octave filtering followed by 18dB/octave filtering.

Why bother with using two filters in the first place if one knows there will be "some" phase issues? How about NOT cascading two filters to avoid any interaction between two filters.
 

ernestcarl

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Even a sample of six would not be of value (nor make your point) since all of the output of the speakers would be mixed together (perceptual masking in full effect).

I wonder how one could have missed my statement about effectively not applying any band-limiting on the LFE channel. It does not surprise me that you heard nothing considering you mentioned yourself playback of the LFE at your end was limited.

Disingenuous claptrap.
 

Soundmixer

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I wonder how one could have missed my statement about effectively not applying any band-limiting on the LFE channel. It does not surprise me that you heard nothing considering you mentioned yourself playback of the LFE at your end was limited.

Disingenuous claptrap.


It was limited....to 250hz, the highest setting on my AVR. Nobody listens to the LFE WITH NO FILTER, so your example is disingenuous claptrap.
 

ernestcarl

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It was limited....to 250hz, the highest setting on my AVR. Nobody listens to the LFE WITH NO FILTER, so your example is disingenuous claptrap.
Indeed, you've proven (in your own words) my point so concretely -- and repeatedly, I should add -- only an imp would go out on a limb so as to deliberately miss it.​
 

Soundmixer

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Indeed, you've proven (in your own words) my point so concretely -- and repeatedly, I should add -- only an imp would go out on a limb so as to deliberately miss it.​

I don't know what you are talking about, but I am sure you really haven't made a point. LOLOLOL!!!!! Nobody said don't use a filter at all (not possible with equipment MOST people use), I said move the filter to the highest setting to avoid interacting with the encoded filter.

Perhaps if you read more, stuff your emotions in your pocket, and respond after thinking things through, what are trying to say would come across more clearly.
 

ernestcarl

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There are some concert discs that shove full-range material (important bass guitar harmonics, for example) in the LFE. One may argue that it’s going to be masked anyway — maybe, or maybe not. But might as well have the option exist to check in case one is wondering. As you saw it’s so easy to mute all channels and quickly solo only the full LFE signal.

The ff. is MCH audio from a concert DVD I played back and recorded at the center listening position of my home theater/music listening couch. I won't bother playing all channels since that's not the point of this demo sample. This isn't the only concert disk out there in existence where more than one instrument is lumped into the LFE channel at full-range.

MCH AUDIO TEST - Coda Marine 475 - KING CRIMSON.mkv

1623976760886.jpeg



I centered the mic exactly in the middle of the monitors and did a quick single sine sweep measurement in REW:

1623976849875.png

single sweep sent out to all channels simultaneously -- yep, you got that right!

As I have said prior, I generally do not extend the LFE channel to my front main monitors unless I'm playing back concert discs with MCH audio content. Like others before me who have listened and monitored to the LFE channel at full-range from various media content the conclusion is there is a use case for not high-passing low-passing the LFE channel/extending it full-range to a satellite channel(s).
 
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Spocko

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I don't know how I could've missed this incredibly informative thread! Navigating it for information relevant to the movie enthusiast, is it fair to conclude the following?
  1. For the most current home theater Atmos mixes, whether on disc or streaming, there is no definitive evidence that low frequency material found in theater releases have been artificially attenuated for the home despite countless posts elsewhere on the Internet. At worst, both theater and home releases are simply not as bass heavy as hoped, but there is no evidence that the original theater mixes have higher low frequency (below 80Hz) levels than the mixes intended for the home (disc/streaming). In other words if the track intended for a movie theater plays 18 Hz @105dB in Scene A then by golly this same Scene A when played at home (assuming reference setup with a capable subwoofer) will also play 18 Hz @105dB without any additional filtering to "recover lost information".
    • Follow up question for @audio2920 who mixes for the theater release: is there any truth to the rumor that modern movies have lowered their LF levels significantly compared to movies made 20 years ago to reduce the amount of bass leakage into adjacent theaters because most theaters today are densely packed multi-plex theaters?
  2. Additionally, despite home mixes having less objects than theater mixes and other data bandwidth differences, this disparity does not affect the low frequency levels intended for the LFE.
  3. Lastly, it is not common knowledge (at least I didn't know this!) that the LFE has an LPF encoded into the home mix so it's best to let your AVR or processor treat the LFE as full range rather than add any additional LPF filtering to it - filter the LFE only if you notice localization artifacts or noisy artifacts coming from your subwoofer in a badly mixed release; but this should be the exception not the rule, because we are assuming that most home releases are mixed with LPF properly encoded. And even in this worse case mix, your main speakers will likely mask the noise due to the huge dB difference.
The above conclusions stem from the informative responses by the OP and @Soundmixer (who mixes Atmos movie audio intended for home releases). Please let me know if I'm missing any other relevant conclusions? I'm trying summarize some actionable data points and best practices that the typical consumer with a good AVR can digest and use.
 
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audio2920

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1. For the most current home theater Atmos mixes, whether on disc or streaming, there is no definitive evidence that low frequency material found in theater releases have been artificially attenuated for the home despite countless posts elsewhere on the Internet. At worst, both theater and home releases are simply not as bass heavy as hoped, but there is no evidence that the original theater mixes have higher low frequency (below 80Hz) levels than the mixes intended for the home (disc/streaming). In other words if the track intended for a movie theater plays 18 Hz @105dB in Scene A then by golly this same Scene A when played at home (assuming reference setup with a capable subwoofer) will also play 18 Hz @105dB without any additional filtering to "recover lost information".

This is the most complex aspect, to which a definitive answer is difficult. But, in short I think it fair to say that most home entertainment (HE) mixes don't intentionally have relative reduced bass content compared to the theatrical. However, is 18Hz @ 105dB in the theatrical mix 105dB in the HE? No, probably not, mostly because of normalisation, phase relationship with main speakers, and mix adjustments deemed necessary for HE.

To elaborate on that though:

[1] I no longer believe a reference level exists for Home Entertainment. I say this because 90% of the time we are given delivery spec which requires an average loudness normalisation NOT a reference level for mixing and replay. This is inherited from broadcast of course, and sometimes bluray mixes are still done at reference, but often not. Certainly anything on a streaming service will be normalised (and thus de-referenced, if you will) and I can't see how a home theater listener could ever know what level would correspond to the mixed level.

An example of what this normalisation might do could be: Let's say we don't want to adjust the theatrical mix AT ALL, we just want to put it out for home use, as-is (This isn't what happens, but just for simplicity!!)

Mix of film "A" comes in 3dB louder than spec, so we turn it down 3dB. We'd now need to set our monitors to 88dB* to get it replay as-mixed theatrically.
Mix of film "B" comes in 4dB quieter than spec, so we turn it up 4dB. We'd now need to set our monitors to 81dB* to get it to replay as-mixed theatrically.

*Assuming 85dB is ref.

[2] The dynamics of the theatrical mix may be deemed too wide for home use, and it may be reduced for HE.

[3] Because there's no bass-management in theatrical, 115dB is always available for LFE content. In Atmos HE, that "LFE" output will be limited to the same level BUT it also contains the bass-managed signal from the main channels, which (in Atmos at least) then gets limited back down to that maximum output level. If the BM from the screen channels pushes the LF output channel 6dB over saturation, the limiter will pull 6dB off your 105dB 18Hz tone in the LFE along with everything else (See point 4)

[4] Not directly relevant to a single 18Hz tone on the LFE, but...... As discussed earlier, the number of speakers in the replay system can have an effect on the spectral balance when bass is omnipresent (or multipresent, not sure what the word is??) basically when bass emanating from multiple speakers has a mostly positive phase relationship. This then sums in with LFE so, at low level you might find a 5.1.2 system plays with less bass overall than a 7.1.4 system because less speakers are summing together in the bass management. Conversely, as the level increases to the loudest points, you might hit the LF output limiter, and a 9.1.6 system is more prone to this than a 5.1.2 system.... So, spectral balance (pivoting around the bass management frequency) is, in my opinion, a little bit unwieldy** even before the sound leaves the Atmos decoder "chip" and gets in to the perhaps even wilder west of room acoustics and calibration.

(I actually hope to provide some demo Atmos content at some point in a few weeks to illustrate this last point.)

  • Follow up question for @audio2920 who mixes for the theater release: is there any truth to the rumor that modern movies have lowered their LF levels significantly compared to movies made 20 years ago to reduce the amount of bass leakage into adjacent theaters because most theaters today are densely packed multi-plex theaters?

I definitely think multiplexes are guilty of reducing the LFE level for this reason, and perhaps because they don't have the required headroom and/or ended up blowing drivers in their LFE stacks. But mix-wise, no.

2. Additionally, despite home mixes having less objects than theater mixes and other data bandwidth differences, this disparity does not affect the low frequency levels intended for the LFE.

Correct, the number of objects doesn't really affect it in most circumstances. The LFE remains discreet and utilises an object when LFE content is present, as I understand it (but, I'm not an expert on the spatial coding used to reduce the object count!). As above, it's more about how the discreet LFE interacts with bass management, in my opinion.

3. Lastly, it is not common knowledge (at least I didn't know this!) that the LFE has an LPF encoded into the home mix so it's best to let your AVR or processor treat the LFE as full range rather than add any additional LPF filtering to it - filter the LFE only if you notice localization artifacts or noisy artifacts coming from your subwoofer in a badly mixed release; but this should be the exception not the rule, because we are assuming that most home releases are mixed with LPF properly encoded. And even in this worse case mix, your main speakers will likely mask the noise due to the huge dB difference.

I think this was a point @Soundmixer was making, but I agree with it. There should be no need to LPF the LFE again.
 
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audio2920

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Actually, to correct myself in point (3) of my first answer, there is bass management theatrically only in Atmos, and only for the surrounds. Obviously better cinemas have rear subs to handle this. But if they didn't, the surrounds would be bass managed to the LFE output, and the same potential for saturation would apply as in HE.
 

Chromatischism

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This is the most complex aspect, to which a definitive answer is difficult. But, in short I think it fair to say that most home entertainment (HE) mixes don't intentionally have relative reduced bass content compared to the theatrical. However, is 18Hz @ 105dB in the theatrical mix 105dB in the HE? No, probably not, mostly because of normalisation, phase relationship with main speakers, and mix adjustments deemed necessary for HE.
But then you go on to mention the effects of increased channel count on bass management.

So isn't it possible that bass levels have been reduced to prevent the mix from getting too bass heavy in today's home surround systems?
 
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audio2920

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But then you go on to mention the effects of increased channel count on bass management.

So isn't it possible that bass levels have been reduced to prevent the mix from getting too bass heavy in today's home surround systems?
Sorry, you're absolutely right. I did contradict myself there!!

What I meant was that for the most part I think any reduction in recorded bass would only be done so that, bass management engaged, the sum total didn't lump up to be greater than than the non-BM'd theatrical appeared. So, yes, the *recording* may contain less bass if that become problematic in the HE mix but only to counteract excessive summing of LFE with main channel bass content (back down to where it should have been) which wasn't as audible in the theatrical environment.
 

Sancus

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I definitely think multiplexes are guilty of reducing the LFE level for this reason, and perhaps because they don't have the required headroom and/or ended up blowing drivers in their LFE stacks. But mix-wise, no.

I've seen some posts elsewhere that indicate the idea of a "standardized" volume level in cinemas is basically false and that there's an ongoing fight between cinema volume settings(turning things down) and film levels(trying to force them back up). It doesn't help that there are clearly some directors who want things done with audio that audiences really just do not like at all(hi, Nolan).

In Atmos HE, that "LFE" output will be limited to the same level BUT it also contains the bass-managed signal from the main channels, which (in Atmos at least) then gets limited back down to that maximum output level.

There's definitely non-Atmos content out there that produces significantly higher summed levels than 115dB, I'm pretty sure. Though considering the dominance of Atmos at this point perhaps it's not too important.
 

Chromatischism

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There's definitely non-Atmos content out there that produces significantly higher summed levels than 115dB
Master and Commander on DVD is said to have a lot more LFE than the Blu-ray. Not sure if that's what you're referring to, but others mention that as one example in the need for the BEQ trend.
 
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audio2920

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I've seen some posts elsewhere that indicate the idea of a "standardized" volume level in cinemas is basically false and that there's an ongoing fight between cinema volume settings(turning things down) and film levels(trying to force them back up). It doesn't help that there are clearly some directors who want things done with audio that audiences really just do not like at all(hi, Nolan).

Totally. I've certainly worked on things that have ended up more brutal on the audience than I would like, as directed. And I can't blame cinemas for reducing the playback level when what we're sending is pretty loud. But, the reference level means us mixers can be thrown in to any mix stage and know where things are at terms of basic levels at least.

There's definitely non-Atmos content out there that produces significantly higher summed levels than 115dB, I'm pretty sure. Though considering the dominance of Atmos at this point perhaps it's not too important.

Interesting. Do you mean on Home Ent or in the cinema? I think it would go over 115 (or rather, over 10dB above the peak level of the mains) if the bass management is done in the AVR and it has headroom in it. Meaning, the LFE can reach full scale and there's still headroom to sum in the BM on top. In Atmos HE the BM is done pre-limiter, but I guess theoretically you could disable the built in BM and do it post-decoder, gain structuring it to cope.

In the cinema, the max for the LFE really is 115dBC unless they've lined it up loud. Although, that's for a sine wave; it's more like 118dBC if you completely saturate the track.
 

Spocko

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Sorry, you're absolutely right. I did contradict myself there!!

What I meant was that for the most part I think any reduction in recorded bass would only be done so that, bass management engaged, the sum total didn't lump up to be greater than than the non-BM'd theatrical appeared. So, yes, the *recording* may contain less bass if that become problematic in the HE mix but only to counteract excessive summing of LFE with main channel bass content (back down to where it should have been) which wasn't as audible in the theatrical environment.

So if the typical AVR subwoofer-crossover setting is 120Hz, wouldn't this solve the sum total bass build-up below 120Hz because now BM has complete control over the sub-woofers to be accurate without cumulative bass from the bed speakers? Obviously running LCR as main/full-range (IMAX Enhanced) would lead to summing issues, but cutting off at 120Hz is supposed to eliminate this issue - or so the theory goes!
 
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audio2920

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So if the typical AVR subwoofer-crossover setting is 120Hz, wouldn't this solve the sum total bass build-up below 120Hz because now BM has complete control over the sub-woofers to be accurate without cumulative bass from the bed speakers? Obviously running LCR as main/full-range (IMAX Enhanced) would lead to summing issues, but cutting off at 120Hz is supposed to eliminate this issue - or so the theory goes!

True. The summing below 120Hz (ignoring gnarly phase response) in that scenario is perfect, regardless of where it came from positionally. But, the summing above it is acoustic and therefore imperfect and room/speaker/position depending.

And therein really lies part of the reason why adding more and more speakers to a surround playback system creates a more and more bass heavy presentation, if there's bass spread across multiple "speakers". Sound below the x-over sums electronically +6dB per doubling of sources, sound above it sums less completely than that.

The other aspect is the -3dB pan law. This means the renderer (or panner) assumes a coupling of 3dB per doubling of sources. So if an object is midway between two speakers, the renderer (or panner) will attenuate it by 3dB. But in reality we often see more than reinforcement than that, and in the case of bass management, we see 6dB.

(I do want to write more on this, probably with some graphs etc for "fun" (yeah I really know how to live) so I'll be back )
 
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