Why aren't there DSP-speakers with external electronics?

[CPTX]

I have the strong suspicion that more and more women are purchasing the family room/TV room set of speakers for the home. I will guess that most will want small, all in one, and “cute” looking.


*these are not wild guesses.

I’d also surmise that speaker manufacturers witnessed the Bose success of selling appearances over audio quality.

 

[akamatsu]

Check out Linn Exakt. Linn offer external digital crossovers. One would need an amp channel for each driver, and a pair of speakers compatible with Linn Exakt. This product/technology has been around for about ten years now I believe.

 

[jhaider]

Looking at basically all active DSP speakers avaiable I wonder why there isn't a design where the speaker is active but the modules that run the speaker are kept externally or at least detachable…

Please share you mind on this.

I agree this is the superior approach for many systems. I wish more did it.

For a desktop or basic 2-channel in room setup, plate amps are fine. When you get into multichannel all those power cords are huge headache.

Others have mentioned speakers using this approach. Maybe the best of both worlds is Neumann’s flagship KH 420 - amp can be used as plate or rack mounted.

 

[VMAT4]

The Linkwitz LX521 is configured in this way, with external crossover and amps in a 1U chassis (one per side). Not at all re-configurable, however.

Most manufacturers are not looking to make DIY or aftermarket customizable systems. If you want that you need to DIY it.

I would like to see products targeted at DIYers by manufacturers, e.g. a parts kit and DSP info for the crossover, and then a forum for junkies to chat about their latest tweaks. This would bring and involve an entirely different type of customer.

Same with the Linkwitz Mini and its variations with and without subwoofers.

 

[EERecordist]

Both ATC and Present Day Productions MUM have external crossover-DSP + amplifiers. Lake does it.

 

[egellings]

Looking at basically all active DSP speakers avaiable I wonder why there isn't a design where the speaker is active but the modules that run the speaker are kept externally or at least detachable.
This would remove the biggest disadvantage of DSP speakers: the reliance on the electronics not becoming faulty over time since you could easily replace or even update the external module.

Think of something like an AUDIOPHONICS HPA-Q250NC but in a more square-shaped package and with a configurable DSP like a Raspberry or some special edition of an Arduino. Or to put it easier: a Hypex fusion amp outside of the speaker. This way, the speaker could be designed like a passive cabinet but with 6-10 wire ports where the amp outputs would be plugged in. The audio itself of course gets plugged into the external active module.

I know this adds some user complexity but also incredible amounts of flexibility. You could use multiple presets depending on desired compromise between max volume/distortion/radiation/bass extension.

Of course this would allow incredible high amount of repairability and customization. Like another driver petter? Screw it in and upload a new FIR-crossover. One amp module broke after a few years? Just plug a new one in.

Please share you mind on this.

I'm only guessing, but I think that any DSP enclosed in a speaker is designed specifically for that speaker system and the DSP algorithm would have to have to be adjusted or changed if anything about the speaker is. The DSP is a custom fit. It would be difficult or impossible for the speaker owner to adjust that, since the knowledge needed for that is extensive and beyond what most people, including this chicken, would be able to understand. Bedawk!

 

[Roland68]

So as a commercial manufacturer, how do you suggest I implement this in a user friendly way for the consumer?

You seem to be an experienced dealer/manufacturer. That's why I don't know exactly what to do with your question.
Normally, with such complex systems, you sell a customer a combination of hardware and services. Such software gives you the opportunity to integrate existing hardware as well as follow the customer's hardware requests.
But it is precisely this independence from any given hardware that also allows defective parts to be easily replaced. And that's what this thread was about.

However, you implied something wrong. Our company only produces industrial products, although we also manufactured and repaired electron tubes in the 60s/70s.

 

[sigbergaudio]

You seem to be an experienced dealer/manufacturer. That's why I don't know exactly what to do with your question.
Normally, with such complex systems, you sell a customer a combination of hardware and services. Such software gives you the opportunity to integrate existing hardware as well as follow the customer's hardware requests.
But it is precisely this independence from any given hardware that also allows defective parts to be easily replaced. And that's what this thread was about.

However, you implied something wrong. Our company only produces industrial products, although we also manufactured and repaired electron tubes in the 60s/70s.

I may have misunderstood the product, but it seemed like it required software on a computer to run. I failed to understand how that was to be implemented in a commercial active speaker that is to be sold as-is to an end consumer who just want to put it in his living room, connect it to his gear and press play.

 

[sigbergaudio]

To put it differently: A requirement of hardware independence is likely to collide with user friendliness / ease of use for the consumer

 

[Sir Sanders Zingmore]

Sanders electrostats fit the bill with all electronics external

 

[Roland68]

I may have misunderstood the product, but it seemed like it required software on a computer to run. I failed to understand how that was to be implemented in a commercial active speaker that is to be sold as-is to an end consumer who just want to put it in his living room, connect it to his gear and press play.

To put it differently: A requirement of hardware independence is likely to collide with user friendliness / ease of use for the consumer

Unfortunately, this shows that you haven't even looked into Acourate and its possibilities.
I don't know how the user-friendliness could be better. In the various forums you can find hundreds of successful installations from the last 20 years. Among them are so-called dummies who set up their systems themselves with a little remote support. Active speakers in the higher 5-digit range have often failed in comparison.
It's not just about setting up a few active speakers. As long as there is access to the individual chassis, you can control any active speaker, activate any passive speaker and get your own designs up and running with surprisingly little time.
You don't need any additional active crossovers, you don't need any DSP, you don't need any additional measurement software, just a calibrated microphone.
Simply set up the preconfigured system at the customer's place, measure it at the listening position and the system is adapted to the room. Any kind of upgrade couldn't be easier or cheaper.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Unfortunately, this shows that you haven't even looked into Acourate and its possibilities.
I don't know how the user-friendliness could be better. In the various forums you can find hundreds of successful installations from the last 20 years. Among them are so-called dummies who set up their systems themselves with a little remote support. Active speakers in the higher 5-digit range have often failed in comparison.
It's not just about setting up a few active speakers. As long as there is access to the individual chassis, you can control any active speaker, activate any passive speaker and get your own designs up and running with surprisingly little time.
You don't need any additional active crossovers, you don't need any DSP, you don't need any additional measurement software, just a calibrated microphone.
Simply set up the preconfigured system at the customer's place, measure it at the listening position and the system is adapted to the room. Any kind of upgrade couldn't be easier or cheaper.

"at the customer's place" - how do I do that if the customer is in a different country?

I freely admit I have not spent much time looking into acourate. This is because my first impression is that this is software running on windows, and I found no information about accompanying hardware. To me it looks like a competitor to Audiolense. So I still fail to understand where the configuration resides. Do I need a computer to be connected to the speakers at all times? If not, how does it work?

 

[Keith_W]

"at the customer's place" - how do I do that if the customer is in a different country?

I freely admit I have not spent much time looking into acourate. This is because my first impression is that this is software running on windows, and I found no information about accompanying hardware. To me it looks like a competitor to Audiolense. So I still fail to understand where the configuration resides. Do I need a computer to be connected to the speakers at all times? If not, how does it work?

Acourate is similar to Audiolense, Focus Fidelity, and near all DSP software except for a few exceptions (notably Dirac). It outputs a .WAV file that needs a real time convolver. The convolver can live on a PC, Mac, Linux, Raspberry Pi, and if the filters are truncated, it can also work with a MiniDSP running OpenDRC. Some kind of computing device is always needed in the signal chain upstream of the DAC. Acourate is the most flexible of all the options listed, it can do nearly anything.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Acourate is similar to Audiolense, Focus Fidelity, and near all DSP software except for a few exceptions (notably Dirac). It outputs a .WAV file that needs a real time convolver. The convolver can live on a PC, Mac, Linux, Raspberry Pi, and if the filters are truncated, it can also work with a MiniDSP running OpenDRC. Some kind of computing device is always needed in the signal chain upstream of the DAC. Acourate is the most flexible of all the options listed, it can do nearly anything.

This was my understanding also. Great for DIY, but I don't see the use case for a commercial speaker.

 

[Keith_W]

This was my understanding also. Great for DIY, but I don't see the use case for a commercial speaker.

This is not a criticism of you, more an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation. The problem with commercial speakers is that you have to cater for the lowest common denominator of customers. In an ideal world, all your customers would know how to DSP and your job should be to deliver a speaker with ideal directivity and other physical characteristics and pre-DSP'ed at the factory to have an ideal response above Schroder. Then the customer would finish the rest of the DSP at home.

But reality is not like that. The vast majority of people either don't understand how to DSP (even if they want to), or even worse - are actively hostile to the idea. I suspect that the majority of people on ASR, the very people who should be most friendly to the idea of DSP - don't know enough about it to attempt a fully manual correction at home. Even the very best DSP speakers like Genelec, Neumann, and Kii's are unfinished products when you buy them. Customers MUST put in some effort to get them flat below Schroder in their listening rooms otherwise they are missing out on 1/3 of the sound.

To me, manufacturers are responsible for what is above Schroder. The customer is responsible for what is below, since manufacturers have no way of controlling that.

The only solution is to spread awareness. But for a manufacturer like you, it would be a bit of a dilemma.

 

[sigbergaudio]

This is not a criticism of you, more an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation. The problem with commercial speakers is that you have to cater for the lowest common denominator of customers. In an ideal world, all your customers would know how to DSP and your job should be to deliver a speaker with ideal directivity and other physical characteristics and pre-DSP'ed at the factory to have an ideal response above Schroder. Then the customer would finish the rest of the DSP at home.

But reality is not like that. The vast majority of people either don't understand how to DSP (even if they want to), or even worse - are actively hostile to the idea. I suspect that the majority of people on ASR, the very people who should be most friendly to the idea of DSP - don't know enough about it to attempt a fully manual correction at home. Even the very best DSP speakers like Genelec, Neumann, and Kii's are unfinished products when you buy them. Customers MUST put in some effort to get them flat below Schroder in their listening rooms otherwise they are missing out on 1/3 of the sound.

To me, manufacturers are responsible for what is above Schroder. The customer is responsible for what is below, since manufacturers have no way of controlling that.

The only solution is to spread awareness. But for a manufacturer like you, it would be a bit of a dilemma.

I agree with all this, and don't take it as criticism. Most customers want something they can just unpack, connect to their system and be up and running. And I think we have already gone quite a long way to address what you are saying, while keeping it as user friendly as possible.

We build 4-way systems with separate subwoofers crossed over at 100hz. That means the octaves that are most important to correct with EQ, is handled by a separate device with built-in user-configurable DSP (9-band EQ). Not everyone know how to use that, but at the very least they can adjust the level of this band separately with the gain on the sub. If they go with the Manta that is cardioid, they will also get better than average in-room response in the range from 100hz and up.

For those who don't want to learn about DSP and measurements, they could purchase something like an Antimode 8033 and get a pretty good result with almost zero knowledge, and without interferring with the main audio chain to the speakers.