Which speakers/setup for ride cymbals

[Sig.Rossi]

I love the sound of ride cymbals in Jazz.

They are very present in live music.

But in recordings they always seem far too quiet. You can hear crash cymbals and an open hihat well, but you can only guess what the ride cymbals play.

Is there a reason for this? Are there specific speakers or setups that can get you closer to live sound?

 

[Doodski]

Use PEQ (Parametric equalization.)
What OS are you on?

EQ Software for Windows, Linux, macOS, iOS/iPadOS and Android.

Any suggestions are welcome. Post suggestions here. I will gather the details and add them. Thanks. :D This will be organized as results come in. @sweetchaos made a guide for PEQ filter data input and operation. For crossover software go here. Windows: AutoEQ four easy steps to make your...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[CapMan]

But in recordings they always seem far too quiet. You can hear crash cymbals and an open hihat well, but you can only guess what the ride cymbals play.

Is there a reason for this? Are there specific speakers or setups that can get you closer to live sound?

I don’t find that is the case at all (speaking as a drummer). Can you give an example of a specific track that bothers you as a reference.

Some ride cymbals are made to sound dark and very dry with little sustain. The sound doesn’t carry much. Others are brighter with more sustain and top end - especially if the drummer uses nylon tip sticks. Some rides are thin and playing patterns creates a lot of wash (background resonances) that can mask the stick sound.

I’ll go find some tracks to try and show what I mean - be back soon

 

[ryanosaur]

My suspicion is it has more to do with the actual recording more than anything else. The electronics aren't going to differentiate between Cymbal and decide one sound is more important. Beyond that, any good quality Speaker will output cleanly whatever is input to it.

 

[CapMan]

So as a baseline take Art Blakey on the track Are You Real (track 3) on the album Moanin’. It’s full on straight ahead swing, a lovely bright clear stick sound but you can hear the ‘wash’ behind it, like the cymbal is breathing and sustaining the note. At 2.09 the piano solos and the ride cymbal volume drops but there is still a lovely clear stick sound. I’d say that is fairly classic…

Now try the track Mr Tambourine Man from The John Scofield album Uncle John’s Band with Bill Stewart on drums - it’s a very different style, more free and the ride cymbal(s) to me sound darker and more trashy - the washy undertones are more sustained, lower in pitch and more equal in volume to the stick sound. There is a much less obvious groove being played.

One of my favourite drummers is Mel Lewis - he had fantastic feel and changed voicing of his cymbals to complement the soloist. listen to the track Move on Art Pepper Plus 11. He swings so well and around 2.10 when art pepper solo ends and the trumpet solo picks up he moves from a higher pitch cymbal to a lower pitch one that blends better with the trumpet…to me the second cymbal (trumpet solo) has a more low pitch wash and the other ride has a more pronounced stick sound and less wash…)

Hope this helps

 

[CapMan]

My suspicion is it has more to do with the actual recording more than anything else. The electronics aren't going to differentiate between Cymbal and decide one sound is more important. Beyond that, any good quality Speaker will output cleanly whatever is input to it.

It starts with how well the drummer plays and how loud he wants the ride cymbal to be in balance with the drum kit and other musicians. Hopefully the engineer is competent enough to pick that nuance up

 

[ryanosaur]

It starts with how well the drummer plays and how loud he wants the ride cymbal to be in balance with the drum kit and other musicians. Hopefully the engineer is competent enough to pick that nuance up

Hopefully.
I'm with you on that, but let's face it, so much depends on the recording.

Art Blakey being Leader, not just Drummer, would likely insist much more on proper micing and have some say in the mix... But how many classic Jazz recordings end up just being washed out somewhat? I know I have many!
But move into more modern recordings and you can absolutely hear the difference. Elvin Jones is still Elvin Jones regardless of whether he's in studio with Trane or Lovano, but the recording quality takes leaps and bounds between the two.

I always felt that Rockers took micing every little thing too far, but it pays off in the mix, so to speak. I'd be surprised to know that Max Roach had more than a single Mic on most of his older recordings, for example.

I never spent much time in a studio, and then as a Rocker instead of a Jazzer. The only legit stuff I recorded was during recital in Music School. I definitely agree with you that the skilled artist will adjust for the venue, including the studio. The engineer still holds so much power over the final product, though.

 

[blueone]

My suspicion is it has more to do with the actual recording more than anything else.

Agreed. Many commercial recordings put the drum kit too far back in the soundstage in the mix as compared to what you hear in live music. Drums and cymbals can be quite loud, and an unfortunate truth is that many drummers play too loud, so the drummer's lack of big picture thinking is fixed in the mix. It's just easier than coaching the drummer. Often over-fixed, because the star of the recording is seldom a drummer. My wife is a drummer, and I agree that most recordings don't sound similar to live music in the drum department. It also depends a lot on the size and layout of the recording venue. This is one reason why I'm partial to live jazz recordings made in the Village Vanguard Jazz Club in NYC. These recordings made over the years often sound very satisfying, drums included, especially the older ones engineered by Rudy Van Gelder.

The electronics aren't going to differentiate between Cymbal and decide one sound is more important. Beyond that, any good quality Speaker will output cleanly whatever is input to it.

Properly designed electronics won't make any difference, but for speakers making cymbals sound live takes a really good low-distortion tweeter that can take high power levels for peaks. This is an area the Revel Salon2 really excels at. I've never heard my live recordings of my wife's cymbals sound more realistic.

My wife is partial to dark ride cymbals, and I agree with @CapMan that they require the right recording and the right material (IMO) to appreciate their subtlety. Brushes are similar; it takes the right material and a good recording to appreciate them.

 

[DVDdoug]

I'm going to pile-on and also say it's probably the recording, although EQ may help.

It's probably dynamic compression (The Loudness War) although jazz shouldn't be as badly over-compressed as popular music. Compression mushes everything together so that nothing stands-out.

I have lots of concert DVDs and on a few of them the drums & cymbals sound really good. It's kind-of surprising since they have a lot more control of the multi-track recording in the studio and they should be able to make studio recordings better. But, I suspect the live recordings are less compressed.

I've also got some "modern" big-band CDs (mostly music from the big band era but newer recordings, probably digital). Some of these have good dynamics where the everything is clear and clean and when I'm listening moderately-loud, and a louder horn-part comes-in, I almost jump out of my seat!

 

[CapMan]

Lovely to connect with drummers and jazzers on here

This is a fun 5 minute tour of the greats of jazz drumming by Billy Ward (Joan Osbourne not Black Sabbath!)

I think you’ll enjoy it

 

[CapMan]

I've also got some "modern" big-band CDs (mostly music from the big band era but newer recordings, probably digital)

Please please please try the Art Pepper Plus 11 album from 1956 (I think) - the recording is beautiful and puts many modern efforts to shame. The Mofi or JVC remasters are the ones to go for.

It’s not mastered loud so you need to crank it up - and when Art hits that first phrase in his ‘Move’ sax solo it’ll give you goosebumps

 

[ryanosaur]

This is a fun 5 minute tour of the greats of jazz drumming by Billy Ward (Joan Osbourne not Black Sabbath!)

Cool vid

 

[CapMan]

Agreed. Many commercial recordings put the drum kit too far back in the soundstage in the mix as compared to what you hear in live music.

I like it when the drums are located in a space in the mix (eg Dave Brubeck Take Five - Joe Morello on the left) rather than panned across the whole soundstage which to me seems entirely unnatural.

 

[ryanosaur]

but for speakers making cymbals sound live takes a really good low-distortion tweeter that can take high power levels for peaks. This is an area the Revel Salon2 really excels at.

Emphasis on good quality.

I know my Raal tweets don't disappoint. Cymbals were one of my metrics and the Phil3s just sounded so much like I was in a small combo again, standing 4 feet from the drummer. The detail of a crisp attack, the sustain and sizzle, all of it!

To think I spent most of my early life with a Sax in my mouth and was such a student of music... and I ruined it for so many years listening on an old Onky-Blow HTIB. All the excitement I had from good recordings was sucked away. I spent around 10 years with that. Late 2018 into 2019 is when I got my new Rig set up and that excitement came rushing back. Hell, even bad recordings were amazing!

Two of my test tracks:

Joe Lovano - Evolution

Listen to Evolution on TIDAL

tidal.com

Featuring Dave Holland and Ed Blackwell, Petrucciani on keys.

Joe Lovano - New York Fascination

Listen to New York Fascination on TIDAL

tidal.com

Dave Holland and Elvin Jones.

 

[CapMan]

Two of my test tracks:

Firing them up now - thanks for the tips .

 

[CapMan]

For those who love the Village Vanguard, great drummers and Joe Lovano this is a super documentary about Paul Motion - Motion on Motion. The piece where he tears a strip off the music student during a break at the club is superb!

 

[ryanosaur]

Firing them up now - thanks for the tips .

Lovano's From The Soul is one of those timeless modern classics for me. Joe can easily stand among some of the greats like Joe Henderson and Dexter Gordon efforts on Blue Note. There's a lot of good stuff on that album. Portrait of Jennie is a great ballad. His own compositions in Modern Man and Fort Worth along with his rendition of Central Park West... So many stand out performances there.

 

[blueone]

I like it when the drums are located in a space in the mix (eg Dave Brubeck Take Five - Joe Morello on the left) rather than panned across the whole soundstage which to me seems entirely unnatural.

Oh yeah. It is so s-t-u-p-i-d when the drums span the soundstage. If I play a recording like that with my wife in the room she gets louder than the recording.

 

[blueone]

I know my Raal tweets don't disappoint. Cymbals were one of my metrics and the Phil3s just sounded so much like I was in a small combo again, standing 4 feet from the drummer. The detail of a crisp attack, the sustain and sizzle, all of it!

The Phil3s are awesome. Dennis' masterpiece, IMO. (I've only heard a pair once, but that was sufficient to be impressed.) I was going to order a pair for our HT room, procrastinated too much, and then they went out of production. MY loss.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Have a listen to the track, Number One in the album, Neighbourhood by Manu Katché.
The symbols sound incredible.

I particularly enjoyed this track on Buchardt S400mkII which have a subtle emphasis in the upper treble which I absolutely loved. The midrange is one of the best around too. Great speaker.