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When did you decide to study STEM major in university? Tips for my daughter?

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Pdxwayne

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The idea is to be among the best. There are, by definition, only a few of those people. I'd rather compete by being skilled at what I like to do than by being able to do things I'd rather not.
I think both of you are correct. : )

For example, in a big corporation, one can be a great engineer and do great for a long time, without knowing much about balance sheets, profit and loss, etc.

But, if one wishes to be a business owner, then being just a top engineer is not enough to ensure business success. Some business skills, ability to understand balance sheets, profit and loss, etc, matter.
 

BlackTalon

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x100. You can be the best engineer on earth, but if you do not generate more revenue than it costs to support you and your portion of overhead than you may have trouble staying gainfully employed.
 

CMOT

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Sorry, late to the party here. I am currently an academic at a "major research university" and have spent my 40+ year career at such institutions, including MIT, etc. I always give students and parents the same advice - do a broad search when looking at universities and find a place that matches with your personal style and passions. MIT is an amazing place, but you better be passionate about STEM and willing to burn the midnight oil on a regular basis. People are intense and work ridiculously hard. It isn't for everyone (there is a reason first semester is P/F only and has been likened to drinking out of a firehose). I would worry less about your daughter's particular interests at this point (she is young, they may change) and more about some of these dimensions:

1) Very problem set/traditional education focus vs. more group work and hands on experiences?
2) Small, Medium or Large school (there are great faculty at all places and many wonderful faculty at non major research universities - don't be sucked into their PR)?
3) Urban or rural campus? Makes a difference in the experience?
4) Residential colleges (e.g., stay in same dorm for most of one's college career with same cohort and some residential faculty) vs. more traditional places with dorms then apartments, but move every year.
5) Look at how hard it is to change majors. Particularly in computer science and engineering - many schools now make you explicitly apply to compsci - if you don't get admitted to compsci, it is difficult to transfer into that major (sometimes true for engineering or statistics/Machine Learning as well). ask about this - schools tend to BS about ease of transfer within the school, but isn't always really the case
6) Internship programs/track record - how much can students gain real-world experiences?

There are others, but these come to mind off the top of my head.

I also always emphasize that there are 100's of great academic institutions and they all have some dedicated faculty (and some not) - so worry less about prestige and more about somewhere that suits your personal style and preferences. The better your experience, the more you will learn. And don't get your heart set on one or two places. Modern academic admissions have become almost silly, so focus on a larger set of schools that are a good fit and be thrilled when you get into even one of them! Don't set yourself up for disappointment.

As for finances, I think you can do a trial run financial aid assessment through the college board. Worth doing. Many schools do provide some financial aid, but also expect loans. You should do such assessments and then have an honest talk with your child about tradeoffs between cost and desired schools. But remember, best places for your child are often not the most expensive. Don't fall for the audiophile fallacy that more expensive means better! :)
 

Frank Dernie

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I think both of you are correct. : )

For example, in a big corporation, one can be a great engineer and do great for a long time, without knowing much about balance sheets, profit and loss, etc.

But, if one wishes to be a business owner, then being just a top engineer is not enough to ensure business success. Some business skills, ability to understand balance sheets, profit and loss, etc, matter.
It helps to know one's value when it comes to salary and bonus discussions too.
 
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Pdxwayne

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Sorry, late to the party here. I am currently an academic at a "major research university" and have spent my 40+ year career at such institutions, including MIT, etc. I always give students and parents the same advice - do a broad search when looking at universities and find a place that matches with your personal style and passions. MIT is an amazing place, but you better be passionate about STEM and willing to burn the midnight oil on a regular basis. People are intense and work ridiculously hard. It isn't for everyone (there is a reason first semester is P/F only and has been likened to drinking out of a firehose). I would worry less about your daughter's particular interests at this point (she is young, they may change) and more about some of these dimensions:

1) Very problem set/traditional education focus vs. more group work and hands on experiences?
2) Small, Medium or Large school (there are great faculty at all places and many wonderful faculty at non major research universities - don't be sucked into their PR)?
3) Urban or rural campus? Makes a difference in the experience?
4) Residential colleges (e.g., stay in same dorm for most of one's college career with same cohort and some residential faculty) vs. more traditional places with dorms then apartments, but move every year.
5) Look at how hard it is to change majors. Particularly in computer science and engineering - many schools now make you explicitly apply to compsci - if you don't get admitted to compsci, it is difficult to transfer into that major (sometimes true for engineering or statistics/Machine Learning as well). ask about this - schools tend to BS about ease of transfer within the school, but isn't always really the case
6) Internship programs/track record - how much can students gain real-world experiences?

There are others, but these come to mind off the top of my head.

I also always emphasize that there are 100's of great academic institutions and they all have some dedicated faculty (and some not) - so worry less about prestige and more about somewhere that suits your personal style and preferences. The better your experience, the more you will learn. And don't get your heart set on one or two places. Modern academic admissions have become almost silly, so focus on a larger set of schools that are a good fit and be thrilled when you get into even one of them! Don't set yourself up for disappointment.

As for finances, I think you can do a trial run financial aid assessment through the college board. Worth doing. Many schools do provide some financial aid, but also expect loans. You should do such assessments and then have an honest talk with your child about tradeoffs between cost and desired schools. But remember, best places for your child are often not the most expensive. Don't fall for the audiophile fallacy that more expensive means better! :)
Wow! Thank you! Will share your insights with my daughter!
 

CMOT

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Wow! Thank you! Will share your insights with my daughter!

One other tip - when applying, read the literature the university provides - they typically have several reasons they promote about why they are different from every other university - what makes them special. In writing why she wants to go to that institution, she should emphasize how her goals align really well with these special properties of said institution and how she has a plan to really take advantage of those special aspects of the place.
 
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Pdxwayne

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One other tip - when applying, read the literature the university provides - they typically have several reasons they promote about why they are different from every other university - what makes them special. In writing why she wants to go to that institution, she should emphasize how her goals align really well with these special properties of said institution and how she has a plan to really take advantage of those special aspects of the place.
Cool! Thx!
 

preload

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We basically told her that she can attend a good in state school and take different 101 courses in different arts and science majors during the first year or two to see if she could find her passions. Then, maybe transfer to a great university to complete her study.

I know you want the best for your daughter. There has been a lot of great advice so far. In case it hasn't been mentioned, what I might add is that there's no guarantee that, by going to a "good in state school," that she'll be able to transfer to another university that will support her continued success. In fact, if your daughter's current application is currently strong based on her high school accomplishments, I think it would almost a shame not to take advantage of that and have her enroll at a school where the standards were a lot lower. I might also worry that if the academic rigor of the "good in state school" does not match that of the transfer school, your daughter will be unprepared for the higher level coursework.

You mentioned that your daughter isn't necessarily sure what career path she is interested in. I see this as even more reason for her to pursue a university that could provide the greatest opportunities no matter what she decides to do. Notice I said "opportunities," not "education." Competitive, highly-regarded universities tend to be ones where you're surrounded by like-minded individuals who care about learning and advancing themselves. This is contrast to other institutions where the culture may be more focused on smoking pot and partying. There are many career paths where the reputation of the university matters - this is especially true for competitive graduate/professional programs, like law and medicine. It also becomes important if your daughter would be applying for a job to a competitive industry (such as engineering) upon graduation, where the alumni network and "cache" of recruiting from "top" universities is the reality.

Some things to think about.
 

CMOT

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I know you want the best for your daughter. There has been a lot of great advice so far. In case it hasn't been mentioned, what I might add is that there's no guarantee that, by going to a "good in state school," that she'll be able to transfer to another university that will support her continued success. In fact, if your daughter's current application is currently strong based on her high school accomplishments, I think it would almost a shame not to take advantage of that and have her enroll at a school where the standards were a lot lower. I might also worry that if the academic rigor of the "good in state school" does not match that of the transfer school, your daughter will be unprepared for the higher level coursework.

You mentioned that your daughter isn't necessarily sure what career path she is interested in. I see this as even more reason for her to pursue a university that could provide the greatest opportunities no matter what she decides to do. Notice I said "opportunities," not "education." Competitive, highly-regarded universities tend to be ones where you're surrounded by like-minded individuals who care about learning and advancing themselves. This is contrast to other institutions where the culture may be more focused on smoking pot and partying. There are many career paths where the reputation of the university matters - this is especially true for competitive graduate/professional programs, like law and medicine. It also becomes important if your daughter would be applying for a job to a competitive industry (such as engineering) upon graduation, where the alumni network and "cache" of recruiting from "top" universities is the reality.

Some things to think about.

Although my entire career has been at private, R1 institutions, I am confident in disagreeing here. I know many superb students who came out of large state schools and have been widely successful. And I can tell you that there is plenty of partying at some private R1 schools. I don't think that your dichotomy or characterization holds. Prestigious, R1 universities do provide a more monolithic cohort ("like minded") but this isn't necessarily a good thing for dealing with life (which comes next). I think R1 universities primarily provide: smaller class sizes (on average), more personalized attention generally, and a network of connections that one can leverage at the next stage of one's career. Maybe more research experiences, but I have seen many many students at larger state schools embedded in labs doing great research - faculty there are just as happy to have smart, motivated students participate. And often there are more opportunities, not less. And I am not sure the advanced calculus class at big state U is much different in content from calculus at elite, bucolic U. Like audio, don't look at the labels and the superlatives - look at what measures well by objective criteria and what matches well with your personal preferences etc.
 
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Pdxwayne

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I know you want the best for your daughter. There has been a lot of great advice so far. In case it hasn't been mentioned, what I might add is that there's no guarantee that, by going to a "good in state school," that she'll be able to transfer to another university that will support her continued success. In fact, if your daughter's current application is currently strong based on her high school accomplishments, I think it would almost a shame not to take advantage of that and have her enroll at a school where the standards were a lot lower. I might also worry that if the academic rigor of the "good in state school" does not match that of the transfer school, your daughter will be unprepared for the higher level coursework.

You mentioned that your daughter isn't necessarily sure what career path she is interested in. I see this as even more reason for her to pursue a university that could provide the greatest opportunities no matter what she decides to do. Notice I said "opportunities," not "education." Competitive, highly-regarded universities tend to be ones where you're surrounded by like-minded individuals who care about learning and advancing themselves. This is contrast to other institutions where the culture may be more focused on smoking pot and partying. There are many career paths where the reputation of the university matters - this is especially true for competitive graduate/professional programs, like law and medicine. It also becomes important if your daughter would be applying for a job to a competitive industry (such as engineering) upon graduation, where the alumni network and "cache" of recruiting from "top" universities is the reality.

Some things to think about.
Thanks for the advice!

The in-state school has Honor College program which is competitive. Minimum GPA to get selected is 3.75 in high school. I think this could be a good choice for her to surround herself with quality individuals.
 
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SimpleTheater

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If you graduated from STEM major, did you know you want to study STEM while in high school?
Absolutely not. I didn't have a clue even after my Freshman year.
We basically told her that she can attend a good in state school and take different 101 courses in different arts and science majors during the first year or two to see if she could find her passions. Then, maybe transfer to a great university to complete her study.
This is a really good idea, because your first year is going to be required courses that should transfer easily. I've told my children there are three things that are very important in choosing a career.
1. Mobility.
Some occupations may pay well, but you're going to have to live in specific areas of the country, or world. My father-n-law designed computer chips for IBM and AMD. He was either living in Austin, TX or a few other places. So he got paid well, but he wasn't about to live in small town, USA.

This is a big advantage of computer programming and also being a pharmacist. They pay well and they're needed everywhere.

2. Future Proofing
Tougher, but think about can they automate your job away in the next twenty years. Back in the 1980's and 90's, you had computer hardware guys installing servers and networking equipment everywhere. Now with AWS, Azure, etc., whole computer departments are being eliminated.

3. Liking What You Do
Unless you're going to make millions in a few years and then move on in your mid-thirties to do what you're passionate about, you better like what you do. This is another area where I think computer science makes sense, because you may love saving puppies and you can get a job at an animal shelter designing there web site, puppy database, etc. You won't get paid as much, but you may really enjoy your work.

Good luck to your daughter.
 
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Pdxwayne

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Absolutely not. I didn't have a clue even after my Freshman year.

This is a really good idea, because your first year is going to be required courses that should transfer easily. I've told my children there are three things that are very important in choosing a career.
1. Mobility.
Some occupations may pay well, but you're going to have to live in specific areas of the country, or world. My father-n-law designed computer chips for IBM and AMD. He was either living in Austin, TX or a few other places. So he got paid well, but he wasn't about to live in small town, USA.

This is a big advantage of computer programming and also being a pharmacist. They pay well and they're needed everywhere.

2. Future Proofing
Tougher, but think about can they automate your job away in the next twenty years. Back in the 1980's and 90's, you had computer hardware guys installing servers and networking equipment everywhere. Now with AWS, Azure, etc., whole computer departments are being eliminated.

3. Liking What You Do
Unless you're going to make millions in a few years and then move on in your mid-thirties to do what you're passionate about, you better like what you do. This is another area where I think computer science makes sense, because you may love saving puppies and you can get a job at an animal shelter designing there web site, puppy database, etc. You won't get paid as much, but you may really enjoy your work.

Good luck to your daughter.
Thank you for the tips!
 

MRC01

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My daughter is junior in high school and she can't really decide if STEM major in university would be a good fit for her. ... she does not have any specific passions for STEM......She can try applying for schools like MIT, but she worries that she will hate it. ...
It may not be "policitally correct" to say so, but STEM majors are simply more demanding than others. It's challenging hard work which is even harder if you don't enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, then it is still challenging but it has a lot of satisfaction for the intellectually curious, call it "type 2 fun". However, you get out of things what you put into them, and that hard work pays off. When you earn a STEM degree it's easier to get a job that is interesting, has the potential to continue to be interesting as you grow in your career, and pays well. Conversely, if you take the easy path through college just because it's easier, you may have a more fun less stressful college experience but you'll never really test your intellect or discipline and you'll pay for it when you graduate. A BA in poli sci and $5 will buy you a coffee at Starbucks or get you a job in retail.

... I majored in math just because that is what I was good at and I know it is a decently respected major. ...
Same here. I had no idea what I wanted to do with myself. My Dad said, if you don't know what you want to do, study math. Because with a degree in math you can do anything. That turned out to be good advice.
 
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Pdxwayne

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It may not be "policitally correct" to say so, but STEM majors are simply more demanding than others. It's challenging hard work which is even harder if you don't enjoy it. If you do enjoy it, then it is still challenging but it has a lot of satisfaction for the intellectually curious, call it "type 2 fun". However, you get out of things what you put into them, and that hard work pays off. When you earn a STEM degree it's easier to get a job that is interesting, has the potential to continue to be interesting as you grow in your career, and pays well. Conversely, if you take the easy path through college just because it's easier, you may have a more fun less stressful college experience but you'll never really test your intellect or discipline and you'll pay for it when you graduate. A BA in poli sci and $5 will buy you a coffee at Starbucks or get you a job in retail.


Same here. I had no idea what I wanted to do with myself. My Dad said, if you don't know what you want to do, study math. Because with a degree in math you can do anything. That turned out to be good advice.
Thank you for your input!

I am glad that my son is enjoying his engineering classes so far. He just told me he was picked as one of the top 10 outstanding sophomores for EECS. I am happy for him.

My daughter, on the other hand, we are not sure if STEM is best fit for her or not. We will see. : )
 

preload

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Although my entire career has been at private, R1 institutions, I am confident in disagreeing here. I know many superb students who came out of large state schools and have been widely successful. And I can tell you that there is plenty of partying at some private R1 schools. I don't think that your dichotomy or characterization holds.

Well sure. Lower tier schools are going to have some brilliant successful students, and elite universities are going to have some screwups. And we all know specific people that fit both description. And each time we're surprised - how did so-and-so graduate from THERE. And that's kind of my point actually. You may be a well rounded genius but if your resume says you graduated from "lesser known school," you're going to have to work that much harder to get that competitive interview or job. And if you're a goofball that comes from an Ivy, people automatically assume you're worth looking at. These may be bad assumptions but it's the truth.

Prestigious, R1 universities do provide a more monolithic cohort ("like minded") but this isn't necessarily a good thing for dealing with life (which comes next). I think R1 universities primarily provide: smaller class sizes (on average), more personalized attention generally, and a network of connections that one can leverage at the next stage of one's career.

I wouldn't diminish the value of those network connections.

Maybe more research experiences, but I have seen many many students at larger state schools embedded in labs doing great research - faculty there are just as happy to have smart, motivated students participate. And often there are more opportunities, not less.
Yes and which do you suppose is more helpful for grad school - the letter of recommendation coming from the lesser known professor at a lesser known institution or a letter from the professor who wrote the textbook and knows everybody in the field including the chair at the grad program you're interested in? Oh and he'll make a phone call for you too.

And I am not sure the advanced calculus class at big state U is much different in content from calculus at elite, bucolic U.

This is where I am, in turn, confident disagreeing with you. The standards for the exact same calculus class can and does differ, particularly in how the same material is examined for letter grades.
 
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Wes

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while the calculus class stds. differing is true - that isn't really the point

the point is access to, and experience in, a great laboratory (or field experience) in the sciences or high level math classes in mathematics
 

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I know quantity doesn't equal quality, but this is a different and interesting approach of ranking engineering schools. If working for top tech companies is one's goal, this is worth pondering.
 
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Pdxwayne

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I know quantity doesn't equal quality, but this is a different and interesting approach of ranking engineering schools. If working for top tech companies is one's goal, this is worth pondering.
Thanks!
 

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When it comes to the construction part of engineering (roads, bridges, buildings, site development, construction engineer, etc.) state schools with strong CE programs are a fantastic choice. Maybe if you want to get into research or teaching college-level classes there could be a benefit to going elsewhere, but otherwise not really worth the extra $$$ to do so. Some of the other engineering disciplines may benefit from some of the more expensive schools, though.
 

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I know quantity doesn't equal quality, but this is a different and interesting approach of ranking engineering schools. If working for top tech companies is one's goal, this is worth pondering.
The article doesn't say if the numbers are raw, or normalized by school size/population. If the former, it's of course misleading, favoring the bigger schools. The text says, "SHL calculated the number of graduates from each institution working at 15 of the world's largest tech companies." and that wording suggests they did indeed make this mistake.
 
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