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What makes a speaker amp deliver satisfying mids and bass?

confucius_zero

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Hi ASR,

I'm listening to my Micca Origain (50wpc + analog out to active sub), comparing with what I'm hearing with my HD58X headphones and I can't seem to have them "push" my Paradigm Atom 7 speakers to delivering a satisfying amount of mids and low end unless I raise my active subwoofer to meet the shortcomings of the amp. It's almost as if the amplifier rolls off from the mid-lows. As a result, the treble and high mids seem to be pushed forward, giving me the illusion of "clean sound".

Is it because its THD is 0.5% or the lack of power?

When I hook my speakers to my old marantz 1070 amp (35wpc, THD 0.3%), they seem to deliver the full range without lacking mids or bass.

Therefore, before I start buying amps again, I'd like to know what to look for in a small desktop amp that a better representation of the full range... if that makes any sense.
 
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trl

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Paradigm Atom: FREQUENCY RESPONSE ON-AXIS±2dB from 86 Hz - 22 kHz, I suspect the -2dB is on the low-end, so try increasing the LPF from the sub somewhere between 80-100Hz. The amp has a freq. resp. of -0.5/+1dB; I suspect the -0.5dB would be on the low-end, so again the sub needs to correct this; perhaps adding a 2nd sub will help. BTW, what sub you're using?

Also, your 90dB@1W/m speakers are rated @8 Ohms, so Micca will only deliver 30W/ch., that means almost 100dB for both speakers at 2.5m distance, based on http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-efficiency.htm.
 
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confucius_zero

confucius_zero

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https://www.paradigm.com/en/passive/atom-monitor
LFE 50hz, I feel my dead old marantz 1070 amp could reach that but not the origain. with the sub, I could compensate but I don't wish to use it since it takes space I need now in my appartment.

Yeah I wish to find an amp that I can use with my Atoms without my Klipsh RPW-10 sub. Perhaps the Nad D3020? The audioengine n22?

Thx for the advice :)
 

trl

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I'm not sure a different amp will do wonders, but give it a try. From what I see, your bookshelf speakers can't handle properly the lowest couple of octaves, at least based on their specs. Not sure how much impact would put this into your music, but without a subwoofer you won't be able to fully benefit of the entire audio listening spectrum.

Also, Low-Pass should be set around 80Hz or even more, just use REW to set this up. Given this high freq. of low-pass, a 2nd subwoofer should be added to fully experience a great soundstage.

If mid-bass doesn't sounds good, maybe you haven't found the sweet spot inside your room. Use REW, maybe it will reveal something.
 

Snarfie

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When i used mathaudio room correction bass & mids cleand up considerbly became different speakers.
 

garbulky

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You're comparing a nice Marantz amp to a entry level class T model. Most class D I've heard felt like it lacked body and weight in the mid range sounding scooped out with tougher loads. Also older amps may have a bass boost tuned in. I know some old amps I tried were clearly a bit more oomphey than a more neutral amp
 

restorer-john

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When I hook my speakers to my old marantz 1070 amp (35wpc, THD 0.3%), they seem to deliver the full range without lacking mids or bass.

The Marantz 1070 is lovely integrated. It will run rings around the little TPA-3116 things. It may have been made in 1974, but its power rating and particularly its distortion were very conservatively rated. It was an improvement on the best seller, the 1060 which was a capacitor coupled quasi complementary design.

If the 1070 needs attention, spend a bit on it to bring it back to spec- you'll be pleasantly surprised. You can always sell the 1070 for a lot more than these little toy amps as they are still very desirable on the vintage market.

Also, your speakers are cute and all, but they are not full range. Trying to extract a satisfying low/mid bass from 5.5" speakers is not really fair. They basically do nothing below 100Hz so don't expect too much.
 

PierreV

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That's a very interesting question in general. I rotate amps and speakers and I am always a bit amazed at the differences I hear, even on supposedly equally competent (based on specs and published data) amplifiers. Leaving room issues aside, yes, the speaker is, by far, the most important factor and you won't get clean 30Hz bass from a speaker that, by design, falls sharply at 80Hz. You can correct that a bit, as explained here https://www.electronicdesign.com/systems/how-get-big-sounds-small-speakers (ironically for TI based class D amplifiers), or even, in today's world, after you have measured your speakers (REW + umik for example) and applied a DSP correction in roon.

Now, whether that correction is somewhat effective depends a lot on the amount of energy your amplifier can deliver and how the speaker behaves in that frequency range. I couldn't find the Atom 7 measurements but I did find the Atom 3 (https://www.stereophile.com/content/paradigm-atom-v3-loudspeaker-measurements) - the speaker is intrinsically limited by its size and design, doesn't seem too hard to drive, but you can see how it falls off the cliff below 100Hz. There's probably no way you are going to be able to compensate for 10, 15 or 20 dB by applying a DSP filter.

As far as why the Marantz sounds better, remember that to produce bass, you need a lot more energy than for mids or highs. Here is a very good educational resource on the basics principles of loudspeaker design http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Audio/spk.html and more specifically on the more power necessary for bass http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Audio/spk.html#c5.

Cheap class D amplifiers running on anemic power supplies can sound good but are intrinsically limited in the power they can deliver. For fun some people have experimented running them on large batteries and seem happy with the short term result in terms of bass expansion at higher volume (I have my doubts on the reliability due to increased heat dissipation, but that is another story). One of the possible explanations (and the most likely imho, but would love to be educated in details by people more competent than I am) is that the Marantz, being build like a tank in terms of power supply and capacitors (at least compared to the cheapish class D amplifier) is able to deliver more energy to the speakers in that frequency range. Another possibility, but one that would still require the ability to deliver more energy in that frequency range - you can't cheat physics - is that it has an adjusted response curve, which would have been well suited to the typical speakers of the day.

Anecdotally, comparing a FX Audio D802 on the supplied power brick to a Marantz HD-AMP1 on KEF LS50 (which have a better bass response than the Atom 3), you could at first think the D802 sounds as good as the 10 times more expensive HD-AMP1. But as you raise the volume to "punch" level, you literally hear the D802 bass disappear... The KEF LS 50 wireless - amazing speakers for the size - use class D amplification as well, but they use dual amplifiers, per spec 200W in the LF range and 30W in the HF range. That at least gives us a rough idea on what KEF engineers though the energy delta required was.

That issue is something I keep running into. It even rears its ugly head with higher end speakers in the 20000 eur/usd + range where I have a pair that I would describe as hard to drive (impedance going as low as 2 Ohms) and that only seems to deliver taunt and punchy bass with what I see as oversized amplifiers.

I really would love to see tests in the area of speaker/amp matching - I feel sensitivity, SNR, separation and response curves only give part of the picture. But then, maybe it would be pointless as it seems we are heading for integrated active speakers...
 

infinitesymphony

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After building some DIY headphone amps back in the day, I've often wondered how transient response is taken into account when evaluating amplifiers, DACs, and other equipment. The slew rates of the different op-amps I tried were all over the place. Is it possible for an amp or a DAC to measure well but to fall on its face when presented with actual material in the time domain? I've certainly seen this with speakers, especially models with passive radiators; the bass measured well but felt disconnected due to its delayed reaction time.
 

RayDunzl

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Is it possible for an amp or a DAC to measure well but to fall on its face when presented with actual material in the time domain?

My DAC opamp

https://www.ti.com/product/LME49860
Slew Rate (Typ) (V/us) - 20

---

https://ethanwiner.com/slew_rate.htm

"This next section showing how to calculate slew rate is included only for completeness: If a preamplifier has a slew rate of 1 volt per microsecond, then it can output about 10 volts peak-to-peak at 20 KHz without adding slew rate-induced distortion. The formula to determine the minimum slew rate needed for a given frequency and output voltage is:

Slew Rate (in volts per second) = 2 * Pi * Frequency * Required Peak Output Volts​
So to output 10 volts peak-to-peak at 20 KHz you need a slew rate of:

2 * 3.14 * 20,000 * 10 = 1,256,000 volts per second​
Then divide the result by 1,000,000 to get microseconds:

= 1.256 volts per microsecond"​
I've certainly seen this with speakers, especially models with passive radiators; the bass measured well but felt disconnected due to its delayed reaction time.

I doubt the electronic's slew rate would ever be much of a factor in the bass.
 
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confucius_zero

confucius_zero

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Guys, what about dynamic power?
 

trl

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Dynamic power would be amplifier's max. power with regular music program input. Usually, testing an amp with pure sinewaves will cause the amp to distort much quickly than with music program. Dynamic power is more close to realty, but given the fact that some manufacturers are not explaining how they test their amps, RMS power across entire audio band might be better when comparing amp specs.

Per http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article...nce_between_continuous_rms_and_dynamic_power_: "Dynamic Power, is a little more difficult to understand. This is a test of the amplifier's ability to go beyond its continuous RMS power for a very short time period. We are not talking minutes or even seconds here. We are talking milliseconds or thousandths of a second. A musical transient peak, such as a cymbal crash lasts only a very short time. Dynamic power is usually measured into 8 ohms, but specifications are generally also published for 2, 4, and 6 ohm loads as well. To keep things from getting too complicated, we will concentrate on the 8-ohm figures. To measure dynamic power, an amplifier is fed a 1000 Hz signal for 20 milliseconds then allowed to rest for 480 milliseconds. The amplifier volume control is turned up until the amp reaches the clipping point. At that point, the amp has reached its instantaneous peak or dynamic power output. Like the continuous power rating, dynamic power is expressed in watts. The figure is usually significantly larger than the RMS power rating, and should not be confused with the continuous power ratings of the amplifier".

Lot of details also here: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/basic-amplifier-measurement-techniques:
"Dynamic Power - (Dynamic PWR) - this is a dynamic power measurement using a 1kHz CEA-2006 Burst Method testing adopted from the car industry similar to IHF method only a bit more difficult for an amplifier and more representative of real musical content. This measurement will give you an idea how much dynamic headroom is available in the amplifier as it tests the robustness of the amplifiers power supply and output devices.
Keep in mind most review publications don't do continuous power measurements and they usually publish power measurements into clipping at 1% THD + N."


L.E.: Same Yamaha link from above says: "[...] The human ear cannot hear anything under 2%. For the most part, when you are considering purchasing an amplifier, you can disregard the THD specifications". That's quite a bold statement, now I'm already thinking of creating a new thread about this. :)
 

andymok

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My DAC opamp

https://www.ti.com/product/LME49860
Slew Rate (Typ) (V/us) - 20

---

https://ethanwiner.com/slew_rate.htm

"This next section showing how to calculate slew rate is included only for completeness: If a preamplifier has a slew rate of 1 volt per microsecond, then it can output about 10 volts peak-to-peak at 20 KHz without adding slew rate-induced distortion. The formula to determine the minimum slew rate needed for a given frequency and output voltage is:

Slew Rate (in volts per second) = 2 * Pi * Frequency * Required Peak Output Volts​
So to output 10 volts peak-to-peak at 20 KHz you need a slew rate of:

2 * 3.14 * 20,000 * 10 = 1,256,000 volts per second​
Then divide the result by 1,000,000 to get microseconds:

= 1.256 volts per microsecond"​


I doubt the electronic's slew rate would ever be much of a factor in the bass.

Usually you strike the timpani so hard you almost poke the skin to get a FFF. You hit it with accent then let it decays.

I doubt real instruments would work like a pure sine wave.

You sure will get the exact same 110Hz A2 from ppp to FFF. Will the skin / string vibrate the same? I doubt.

Not to mentions there are always tons of harmonics over it. That's what makes timpani sounds like a timpani instead of a fart.

Can your driver's membrane reproduce the same movement , or at least in scale as the timpani's skin and body did?

When will amirm get a high speed to see how far it actually moves :p
 
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Frank Dernie

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Hi ASR,

I'm listening to my Micca Origain (50wpc + analog out to active sub), comparing with what I'm hearing with my HD58X headphones and I can't seem to have them "push" my Paradigm Atom 7 speakers to delivering a satisfying amount of mids and low end unless I raise my active subwoofer to meet the shortcomings of the amp. It's almost as if the amplifier rolls off from the mid-lows. As a result, the treble and high mids seem to be pushed forward, giving me the illusion of "clean sound".

Is it because its THD is 0.5% or the lack of power?

When I hook my speakers to my old marantz 1070 amp (35wpc, THD 0.3%), they seem to deliver the full range without lacking mids or bass.

Therefore, before I start buying amps again, I'd like to know what to look for in a small desktop amp that a better representation of the full range... if that makes any sense.
For me your problem is that your speakers are far too small, more power may help a bit but you can’t break the laws of physics.
Small speakers need DSP compensation for their lack of size and huge power for that compensation, and big enough bass drivers to shift enough air to compensate for the small size, like Devialet Phantoms.
 
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confucius_zero

confucius_zero

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your speakers are far too small

My previous amp (the marantz, not the origain) could drive their bass to a shaking level. I would like to know why
 
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confucius_zero

confucius_zero

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now I'm already thinking of creating a new thread about this
Plz do. I'm curious to read the responses.
 

infinitesymphony

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@RayDunzl, is it possible for capacitor value / quality / response time to affect transient response? I think we're all trying to explain why class D amps (especially from the first generation) have tended to sound bass-light or treble-focused depending on which way you want to look at it. Perhaps just a matter of having ears adjusted to class AB amps with intentionally warm sound signatures, or is this something measurable due to inadequacies in the power section or other parts of a design?

Admittedly, it's been a while since I've listened to a class D amplifier in a full-range system. :)
 

RayDunzl

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is it possible for capacitor value / quality / response time to affect transient response?

Yes.

Perhaps just a matter of having ears adjusted to class AB amps with intentionally warm sound signatures

Mine don't seem to have any audible temperature to speak of.

or is this something measurable due to inadequacies in the power section or other parts of a design?

Inadequacies of the power supply (assuming it isn't broken or stupid) shouldn't show up until the amplifier is operating near its limits - like at the knee on the graphs that show distortion vs power output.
 

RayDunzl

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Usually you strike the timpani so hard you almost poke the skin to get a FFF. You hit it with accent then let it decays.

I doubt real instruments would work like a pure sine wave.

This was discussed before. Flute was proposed, but it has a lot of harmonics.

The closest thing I've found, that at least marginally qualifies as a "real instrument", in creating a "pure sine", is a beer bottle with .4% THD (jugs can be used in Appalachian/Hillbilly Folk).

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hiit-yggdrasil-v2-dac.3607/page-34#post-94736

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