At what level is noise heard in your system?

[Blumlein 88]

Wondering about noise audibility for people here on ASR.

I created a file, that has 2 seconds of filtered white noise from 3-5 khz followed by two seconds of silence. It repeats for 16 seconds. That keeps noise and no noise segments in echoic memory. The noise is in the ear's most sensitive region of frequencies. The filtering isn't steep. Rolled out 6db / octave below 3 khz and 12 db/octave above 5 khz.

Download this zip file:

https://dl.orangedox.com/OjZQs4QF7HYPQyP5gg

It will open into 9 files. The noise starts at - 30db in the first track so everyone can hear it, and then goes down by 10 db steps until the last file is at -120 db. The files are 44.1 khz/24 bit files. Uncompressed wav.

My suggestion is play a couple of your favorite songs to set a normal comfortable volume level. Then without altering volume level listen to these tracks. Let us know on the thread at what level the noise disappears for you.

In addition to that, I took those noise files and mixed them into a 30 second song snippet. Here you can download a John Hiatt track with different levels of noise mixed in. Again listen and let us know at what point the noise is not heard by you. Set it to a comfortable volume on the first track, and don't alter the volume.

https://dl.orangedox.com/UEMeePLXxfmSIm4bUt



Same as the above, in this case an Eric Clapton/John Mayall track snippet with noise mixed in at levels from -30 db to -120 db. Let us know at what level the noise disappears to you. Again after setting a comfortable volume don't change volume levels.

https://dl.orangedox.com/8eCgDgxmZrbsyZ8xE2

Hopefully it might lead to some good discussion and we can see how this differs for different people using different systems.

 

[fas42]

Nice effort you went to there, Dennis . Just listening to noise alone tracks on the laptop speakers, on maximum volume, realistic limit is -60dB, if I really push it, -70dB - at these levels the laptop's internal rattling are major competitors, fan, hard drive, etc. And that's what I would have expected - I've done this sort of exercise before, and 60dB down requires maximum boost to perceive over speakers.

 

[RayDunzl]

With my "standard" volume setting:
-20dB uncorrelated full range pink noise giving 75dBz at the listening position:

Your -50dB file is audible, -60dB file is just barely audible, -70dB file is not, for me.

I have PC fan noise in the room and the general level of ambient noise at 3:33pm on a Saturday is 37dBA and 47dBC and 54dBZ, more or less.

I'd try the others but have downloading problems right now, due to some Win7 corruption I haven't fixed.

---

As for noise generated by or intruding into my system, I've never detected any electrically or audibly. A little mechanical transformer noise was present occasionally, now quieted with balanced or isolated power, other than a little groan that occurs sometimes when a substation switches in or out.

 

[tomelex]

Nice job indeed Dennis. 60db is about it for me in my background noise environment and reasonable level I listen to music at, harder to tell on the Clapton track for sure.

Amir, recommend this gets a sticky at some point, this work does our site proud!

 

[Sal1950]

Had to make a couple adjustments to my open architecture room to give test a chance. Shut down refrigerator, HVA, and tower computer to drop noise level best possible. Listened on my Senn HD-650 cans but they are openbacked and I could still hear the hum of the lappys fan/harddrive, also the DVR's drive at the other end of the room.
#1 Could still hear the noise just barely above the noise of the lappy at 60db, 70 it was gone.
#2 Could still hear the noise just barely above the music at 50db during the quiet moments in the beginning, at 60 all gone.
#3 Couldn't honestly say I could hear the noise under the music even at 30db, maybe hearing a stop or start between notes on occasion? Not worth the strain to listen at any lower level.

Cent' Anni D

 

[Vincent Kars]

Using my Etymotics ER4P in a Benchmark DAC 1

At volume "11" (bit loud) the white noise is audible at 70
With the volume at max, 90 is what I can hear.
The rest is plain silence to me

Hiat, hiss audible at 60
Myall, only the 30 is audible to me

Nice test, thanks

 

[Sal1950]

At volume "11" (bit loud) the white noise is audible at 70
With the volume at max, 90 is what I can hear.
The rest is plain silence to me

My suggestion is play a couple of your favorite songs to set a normal comfortable volume level. Then without altering volume level listen to these tracks. Let us know on the thread at what level the noise disappears for you.

 

[fas42]

Yes ... 60 dB would be audible listening normally, 70 dB with one's head jammed against the speakers - then add 20 to 30 dB of gain headroom into the equation ...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thanks to all of you reporting your results. I have the same post on another forum. The responses in both places are similar. Most report hearing down to -60 db with a person here or there saying -70 db.

BTW, I listed these with peak values. RMS for each is another -11.4 db. So hearing the -60 db signal is -71.4 db rms. Sorry for the mix up.

As I assume most would set comfortable average listening levels for music in the 70-80 db range these are interesting results. It would mean most of us in that most sensitive region are hearing not far from the threshold of hearing. While our rooms have wideband noise levels of 30 db or more, the level of noise in the 3-5 khz range is generally rather low.

I did have one person at the other forum report hearing -100db if he placed his ear right at his speakers. He reported -60 db in his normal listening position and volume setting.

The idea for this came from a paper by Dolby. Using a very similar test signal they reported getting results very near the actual hearing threshold which surprised me. These results however fit. So considering headroom for peaks at least in our most sensitive frequencies quiet gear is needed. Then again I suppose it was all too simple. If you don't hear any noise during silent portions at normal listening levels your gear is quiet enough.

 

[RayDunzl]

Here's what the -30dB file looks like in the air here, when full range correlated pink at -20dB (rms) generated by REW reads 81.2dB in the air:
Red - Peak
Black - measurement noise floor

And the -60dB file

And -70 is inside the measurement noise floor.

 

[Blumlein 88]

As usual Ray, some nice measurement info there. Your in room noise floor is pretty low in that 3-5 khz range. So this makes it abundantly clear in pictures why the noise disappears somewhere around the -60 or -70 db tracks.

Thanks for posting this.

 

[RayDunzl]

I got curious as to whether some of the lower spikes in the "noise" were in the air or electrical.

By generating a tone at the same frequency and level with the speakers, and moving that frequency a few Hertz, I could hear "beating", so at least some of those are real, even though I can't really hear them distinctly on their own.

Another little noise experiment... Four standard staples stuck together, broken off a strip of them, dropped from a height of 1/2 inch onto my desktop, five feet off to the side of and two feet behind the microphone:

 

[Blumlein 88]

Hey, making measurements of those staples to a higher frequency might show they are much louder past 20 khz. Like those jangling keys. Those babies are pretty loud at 30-35 khz, and barely noticeable to us deaf audiophiles.

 

[RayDunzl]

I'm limited to 24kHz frequency here, both by the microphone, the MiniDSP, my speakers...

And personally internally, more than two octaves below that...

I credit Mom/genetics for that, since it isn't anything new, discovered with the Test LP in 1961 (age 8) or so.

 

[trl]

1# & 2# & 3#"
Error (404)
We can't find the link you're looking for. Please check the link and try again.

Did you happen to have these files and put'em back, please? Thank you!

 

[Blumlein 88]

1# & 2# & 3#"
Error (404)
We can't find the link you're looking for. Please check the link and try again.

Did you happen to have these files and put'em back, please? Thank you!

The files are no longer there. I don't even know if I saved them. I may put them back if I can find them.

Nope I don't have those files any more. I just searched and they aren't there. Sorry.


They are easy to create yourself. You can do it in Audacity. If you are interested I'll give some tips and instructions. If not, I might re-create them, but it will be a few weeks as end of the year is very busy for me right now.

 

[trl]

Eh, never mind, I did last night a similar test made by atomicbob: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...echnical-measurements.5770/page-3#post-190831, seems that I was lucky with my T50RP-mk3 & CV2+ & jRiver, but also with Solo2 & MacBookPro & VOX and I was able to spot the low-level sinewave and the squarewave too. The Solo2 was providing an even better isolation and it's also more sensitive, so it was very easy to spot the two low-level -84dB sounds. I adjusted the volume for the main 440Hz sinewave to a pretty high level, but not very high...I could listen for couple of minutes to this sine without issue (it was room for increasing the volume for sure, it was not max. to my hearing).

There's also https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...echnical-measurements.5770/page-3#post-190867, but I'm not sure what the "hidden message @20dB lower than the pink noise" should sound, so I can't spot it. I'm hearing something between sec. 2.4 and 3.5, but can't really say what it is, so...I think I failed this test.

Also, a very interesting test would be https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...echnical-measurements.5770/page-4#post-190976, but I need to train my ears and brain to spot the 0.1% THD+N differences first, then I'll see if I can really find the results, though I don't think I can figure out which file is the right one.

 

[Wombat]

I hear noise at zero volume. I have to stick my ear right in the CD driven MF/HF horn to only just hear it. Other than that there is no apparent noise.

My system is a mix of consumer(single-ended) and Pro(balanced) gear. I understand how to connect all 10 pieces of it properly.

 

[Krunok]

Wondering about noise audibility for people here on ASR.

I created a file, that has 2 seconds of filtered white noise from 3-5 khz followed by two seconds of silence. It repeats for 16 seconds. That keeps noise and no noise segments in echoic memory. The noise is in the ear's most sensitive region of frequencies. The filtering isn't steep. Rolled out 6db / octave below 3 khz and 12 db/octave above 5 khz.

Download this zip file:

https://dl.orangedox.com/OjZQs4QF7HYPQyP5gg

It will open into 9 files. The noise starts at - 30db in the first track so everyone can hear it, and then goes down by 10 db steps until the last file is at -120 db. The files are 44.1 khz/24 bit files. Uncompressed wav.

My suggestion is play a couple of your favorite songs to set a normal comfortable volume level. Then without altering volume level listen to these tracks. Let us know on the thread at what level the noise disappears for you.

In addition to that, I took those noise files and mixed them into a 30 second song snippet. Here you can download a John Hiatt track with different levels of noise mixed in. Again listen and let us know at what point the noise is not heard by you. Set it to a comfortable volume on the first track, and don't alter the volume.

https://dl.orangedox.com/UEMeePLXxfmSIm4bUt



Same as the above, in this case an Eric Clapton/John Mayall track snippet with noise mixed in at levels from -30 db to -120 db. Let us know at what level the noise disappears to you. Again after setting a comfortable volume don't change volume levels.

https://dl.orangedox.com/8eCgDgxmZrbsyZ8xE2

Hopefully it might lead to some good discussion and we can see how this differs for different people using different systems.

I'm getting error when trying to download any of these files:

Error (404)
We can't find the link you're looking for. Please check the link and try again.

 

[Thomas savage]

The issue with these kinds of test is people dont like taking them and this undermines the effort involved in creating it.

Its a shame as gathering data like this could be brilliant. Iv noticed @Blumlein 88 has made several similar efforts with uptake limited.

Downer and eventually you kinda think why bother. Still maybe when this site a little more mature we can put something 'official ' up and really try to drive participation.