What is the flattest target curve?

[digitalfrost]

Interesting. Will give this a try.

e: I have to say I like this a lot. The bass is close to my own tuning, and I think this sounds closest to my speakers of all the targets I tried so far.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Flat is a great target for DACs, ADC, amps.

Can be with certain speaker / room combos as well. I like my speakers' in-room response flat with a low frequency shelf.

But to the OP's question the flattest target curve is not a curve. -It's a horisontal line.

 

[Zim]

A "flat" curve is a straight line horizontal line when measured.
A "neutral" curve would be the Harman target curve for IEMs and headphones, and a flat curve for monitors/speakers. Toole's done the research. Olive/Harman's done the research.

I generally ignore the opinions of reviewers who don't consider the Harman target as neutral, especially those who say they don't consider it neutral because it doesn't sound neutral to them without any scientific backing, research.

 

[markanini]

I generally ignore the opinions of reviewers who don't consider the Harman target as neutral, especially those who say they don't consider it neutral because it doesn't sound neutral to them without any scientific backing, research.

You should tell them a target doesn't make a sound.

 

[dasdoing]

A "neutral" curve would be the Harman target curve for IEMs and headphones

we don't know what would be neutral, but Harman is obviously not. at least not the bass boost. and it wasn´t developed to be neutral either. so I don't see why this myth keeps running around. it's a preference curve

 

[markanini]

we don't know what would be neutral, but Harman is obviously not. at least not the bass boost. and it wasn´t developed to be neutral either. so I don't see why this myth keeps running around. it's a preference curve

Does the distinction matter? If we assume, for example, that preference is imprinted in listeners by physical sound events, like speakers in living spaces and venues, what's the alternative?

 

[GaryH]

we don't know what would be neutral, but Harman is obviously not. at least not the bass boost. and it wasn´t developed to be neutral either. so I don't see why this myth keeps running around. it's a preference curve

Ironic, considering pretty much all of that comment is myth. Here's the reality:

I think it is well established that flat bass in a headphone or in-room response of a loudspeaker is NOT neutral. We’ve had trained listeners draw the perceived spectral balance of these targets and they are perceived as not flat.
Toole spent 10 years having listeners rate loudspeaker based on perceived fidelity/neutrality. When we switched to preference, the loudspeakers ratings didn’t suddenly change. There is a high correlation between fidelity/neutrality/ preference.

Our headphone targets do not deviate significantly above 200 Hz from a anechoically flat speaker measured in our reference room at the DRP. For the AE/OE target it’s within 2 dB of the bass of the in-room speaker target. For the IE target it’s higher, but there are data to support it needs to be higher to be perceived as equivalent

 

[abe_zydar]

I haven’t read the paper, but the synopsis states the conclusion and is a direct source for the research.

AES E-Library » Listener Preferences for Different Headphone Target Response Curves

There is little consensus among headphone manufacturers on the preferred headphone target frequency response required to produce optimal sound quality for reproduction of stereo recordings. To explore this topic further we conducted two double-blind listening tests in which trained listeners...

www.aes.org

I found this in Oratory1990’s response to a similar question that’s linked to in other discussions on the topic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/headphones/comments/eetyx9/_/fbxbp9j

 

[JJFUSA]

The only target I can advise is markanini target: https://kurin.squig.link/?share=mar..._7Hz_Salnotes_Zero,Oratory_Moondrop_Starfield

View attachment 277397

Now that is quite interesting, as I'm looking for the best IEMs to properly represent the live sound, your target could be the one to align with, since it closer to the speakers as it stated here:

What is the flattest target curve?

Interesting. Will give this a try. e: I have to say I like this a lot. The bass is close to my own tuning, and I think this sounds closest to my speakers of all the targets I tried so far.

audiosciencereview.com

S12 is almost perfectly aligned with your target, hence it should sound like a good set of speakers, correct me if I'm wrong here:

How would you compare S12 to Blessing 2, also would you recommend S12 as the best neutral (or realistic sounding) set in the price range up to $300, based on the alignment with your target?

 

[markanini]

Now that is quite interesting, as I'm looking for the best IEMs to properly represent the live sound, your target could be the one to align with, since it closer to the speakers as it stated here:

What is the flattest target curve?

Interesting. Will give this a try. e: I have to say I like this a lot. The bass is close to my own tuning, and I think this sounds closest to my speakers of all the targets I tried so far.

audiosciencereview.com

S12 is almost perfectly aligned with your target, hence it should sound like a good set of speakers, correct me if I'm wrong here:
View attachment 277761
How would you compare S12 to Blessing 2, also would you recommend S12 as the best neutral (or realistic sounding) set in the price range up to $300, based on the alignment with your target?

It sounds speaker-like to me. I'm a single listener so no guarantees, especially not using Resolves measurements because he uses a different type of coupler.
My target follows a trend shared by Harman, Oratory1990 and Moondrop target. Where they diverge, in the lower and upper ranges, coincides with a lower accuracy of the coupler, so there I inserted my own preference.

 

[Zim]

we don't know what would be neutral, but Harman is obviously not. at least not the bass boost. and it wasn´t developed to be neutral either. so I don't see why this myth keeps running around. it's a preference curve

Harman having a "bass boost" is the myth. I hate that term. Yeah on frequency response graph, the absolute value shows that there is a "bass boost". But does not necessarily mean that what is heard is "bass boost".

It wasn't developed to be neutral per se, but it was developed to find the IEM/headphone equivalent of what is preferred akin to what Toole did with speakers.

https://acousticstoday.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/The-Perception-and-Measurement-of-Headphone-Sound-Quality-What-Do-Listeners-Prefer-Sean-E.-Olive.pdf

I think it's safe to say that something that the research has shown is neither bass heavy/light or treble heavy/light, is the average, middle ground one could say, could be referred to as neutral, the neutral point. If you don't think one can call "average" as being "neutral", well then. There's nothing more to discuss.

What is deemed neutral will just keep evolving as more data is obtained, humanity progresses and evolve/devolve/changes, And at this point in time, with today's data, research, the Harman curve can, in my honest opinion, be safely considered our neutral point, our baseline. Preference changes over time. And so what the data shows as neutral.

Data, research, evidence please. Not some YouTube reviewer's opinion of what is neutral. A single data point doesn't trump multiple data points. That single data point could be an outlier as far as I'm concerned.

 

[dasdoing]

can someone share a txt of IEF neutral 2023?

 

[fpitas]

there have only been preference studies, so we don't know.

That's really the bottom line. Harman is a company that wants to move headphones. They aren't terribly concerned about flat, or what one outlier thinks. EQ your headphones so you're happy.

 

[digitalfrost]

can someone share a txt of IEF neutral 2023?

 

[dasdoing]

That's really the bottom line. Harman is a company that wants to move headphones. They aren't terribly concerned about flat, or what one outlier thinks. EQ your headphones so you're happy.

well, there is ISO 11904-1 and ISO 11904-2 which in theory should be neutral in the sense of an "anechoic response"?
my Superlux 681 indeed sounds neutral with ISO 11904-1, but my KZ ZSN PRO sounds terribly thin with it.

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thanks a lot @digitalfrost

 

[fpitas]

well, there is ISO 11904-1 and ISO 11904-2 which in theory should be neutral in the sense of an "anechoic response"?
my Superlux 681 indeed sounds neutral with ISO 11904-1, but my KZ ZSN PRO sounds terribly thin with it.

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thanks a lot @digitalfrost

Wait...I thought we were talking about headphones? Anechoic response?

 

[dasdoing]

this fork of AutoEQ has premade filters for the old IEF neutral and a bass boosted version of it https://github.com/iwalton3/AutoEq

 

[dasdoing]

Wait...I thought we were talking about headphones? Anechoic response?

I guess it depends on how you define neutral.
for ME neutral would be the response of a perfect(ly flat) speaker pair in a perfect stereo triangle in an anechoic chamber

 

[fpitas]

I guess it depends on how you define neutral.
for ME neutral would be the response of a perfect(ly flat) speaker pair in a perfect stereo triangle in an anechoic chamber

I agree, but...what has that to do with the Harman headphone curve?

 

[dasdoing]

I agree, but...what has that to do with the Harman headphone curve?

it has to do with the old post of mine you replied. I was talking about studies to determine a neutral response in headphone