What is an equivalent product to HiFi snake oil?

[Keith_W]

Funny, since all sugars break down in your mouth.

Starts breaking down in your mouth. Amylase initiates the breakdown of complex sugars but the process is completed in the rest of the digestive tract.

 

[jsrtheta]

It may not be optimal, but a human can live indefinitely on protein and fat. The fat ends up being the majority of calories, and some of the protein gets converted to provide the needed carbohydrates. So you don't have to eat any carbohydrates as long as you're getting enough protein. The need for carbohydrates goes down as your body switches over to using a larger percentage of calories from fat sources. I've experimented with an ultra low carbohydrate diet and found that it's bad for high intensity energy but good for long endurance, lower output energy. On an ultra low carbohydrate diet I could get up without breakfast, ride my bike over 100 miles in cold weather into the mountains with 6,000 feet of climbing, eat nothing during the ride, and still not be starved when I got home. It was all day steady energy. I averaged around 16 miles per hour. I was very tolerant of cold weather but struggled with overheating in warm weather. I did that diet for a few years but eventually got the urge to have a bit more power. I also really like carbohydrates.
Now I'm experimenting with a high carbohydrate, ultra low fat diet. I've been doing this for 2 years now. I'm testing the notion that we only need tiny amounts of polyunsaturated fats for optimal health. I figure I'll start getting a craving for fatty foods if I'm getting short on omega 6 and 3. So far there has been zero craving for such foods. But it's only been 2 years and from what I understand the body can pile up large reserves of omega 6 and 3s that can take years to deplete. There are still small amounts coming in from my diet and they may be perfectly adequate. We'll see. On this high carb diet I can ride the bike faster now - a lot faster for short distances and climbing hills. I can also go all day but I have to eat breakfast and eat during the ride. I'm much more heat tolerant and less cold tolerant, which makes summer a lot more fun. I can dress warm in the winter.

How is this any different than saying "The difference wasn't subtle! I could hear it immediately!"

 

[Tim Link]

How is this any different than saying "The difference wasn't subtle! I could hear it immediately!"

I don't know for sure what you're getting at. What If I say a little extra " I wired my speakers out of phase. The difference wasn't subtle! I could hear it immediately! " Does that change anything?
I do have metrics on my cycling performance. I rode with other people who can attest to changes in my performance. I don't know if you've ever hit the wall while cycling or running but it's pretty obvious when that happens.

 

[Ron Texas]

Previgen. It's supposed to improve memory, but there is no proof it works.

 

[Spkrdctr]

I don't know for sure what you're getting at. What If I say a little extra " I wired my speakers out of phase. The difference wasn't subtle! I could hear it immediately! " Does that change anything?
I do have metrics on my cycling performance. I rode with other people who can attest to changes in my performance. I don't know if you've ever hit the wall while cycling or running but it's pretty obvious when that happens.

Tim! Heck I hit the wall walking from the car to inside the house. I know the wall well. Shopping at my local grocery store is a marathon for me. Keep on riding and keep your health!

 

[jsrtheta]

I don't know for sure what you're getting at. What If I say a little extra " I wired my speakers out of phase. The difference wasn't subtle! I could hear it immediately! " Does that change anything?
I do have metrics on my cycling performance. I rode with other people who can attest to changes in my performance. I don't know if you've ever hit the wall while cycling or running but it's pretty obvious when that happens.

I have trouble believing we are discussing phase like this is a new revelation. It's not. Phase audibility was tested to death, years ago.

And still people "try this at home" and report totally uncontrolled, anecdotal results.

And here I thought I came here to learn new things...

 

[Ron Texas]

I find this thread to be disappointing and frequently offensive. Quite a few members here are passing judgment on other people without any reason other than they have an opinion, a belief or a claimed lack of belief.

 

[egellings]

In audio, as in all else, man's best friend is his dogma.

 

[Tim Link]

I have trouble believing we are discussing phase like this is a new revelation. It's not. Phase audibility was tested to death, years ago.

And still people "try this at home" and report totally uncontrolled, anecdotal results.

And here I thought I came here to learn new things...

I think you're talking about absolute polarity. I've tested my self on that. I can't hear it. Or are you talking about the phase response of a speaker? I'm not too sensitive to that either, at least I haven't heard any astounding differences from getting the drivers all highly phase aligned.

I'm talking about wiring up one speaker out of phase with another. Do you feel any need to double blind test that stereo speakers wired up out of phase with each other creates an audible difference compared to when they are wired in phase with each other? I've not read of anyone testing this because it's too obvious. It's like doing randomized control trials to see if a gunshot to the chest is really harmful.

 

[Tim Link]

In audio, as in all else, man's best friend is his dogma.

I like that! In contemporary use the word dogma seems to have a negative connotation. Some synonyms are "principle", "ethic", and "precept", which all sound a little nicer to me. Maybe it's the fact that the word starts with 'dog' that makes it seem so negative, and yet people really like dogs.

 

[jsrtheta]

I think you're talking about absolute polarity. I've tested my self on that. I can't hear it. Or are you talking about the phase response of a speaker? I'm not too sensitive to that either, at least I haven't heard any astounding differences from getting the drivers all highly phase aligned.

I'm talking about wiring up one speaker out of phase with another. Do you feel any need to double blind test that stereo speakers wired up out of phase with each other creates an audible difference compared to when they are wired in phase with each other? I've not read of anyone testing this because it's too obvious. It's like doing randomized control trials to see if a gunshot to the chest is really harmful.

 

[Tim Link]

Tim! Heck I hit the wall walking from the car to inside the house. I know the wall well. Shopping at my local grocery store is a marathon for me. Keep on riding and keep your health!

I hit the wall last week using the push mower. It kept getting clogged up with pine cones, so I had to repeatedly stop, pick up the pine cones, unclog the blades, and start pushing again. After finishing the front and back yards I was dripping with sweat and a bit shaky and seeing stars.

 

[jsrtheta]

I think you're talking about absolute polarity. I've tested my self on that. I can't hear it. Or are you talking about the phase response of a speaker? I'm not too sensitive to that either, at least I haven't heard any astounding differences from getting the drivers all highly phase aligned.

I'm talking about wiring up one speaker out of phase with another. Do you feel any need to double blind test that stereo speakers wired up out of phase with each other creates an audible difference compared to when they are wired in phase with each other? I've not read of anyone testing this because it's too obvious. It's like doing randomized control trials to see if a gunshot to the chest is really harmful.

No, I think I figured that out at age 15, which was a very long time ago.

Now, reverse the polarity on both speakers. I think the next dbt will pretty much suggest itself.

 

[Tim Link]

No, I think I figured that out at age 15, which was a very long time ago.

Now, reverse the polarity on both speakers. I think the next dbt will pretty much suggest itself.

Back to your original question, I don't know how to honestly answer that. It seems I'd have to find a way to blind test myself by not knowing what I'm eating and then test my athletic performance. Otherwise, I'm just going on perceived experiences, which could be influenced by my knowledge of whether I'm eating carbs or not. I can say I was very accustomed to being able to keep up on long rides without bringing food or eating breakfast when I was eating ultra low carb. It wasn't always easy but I could keep up all day. I switched back to eating carbs after a couple years of keto and assumed I'd still be able to do the same but I couldn't. Everybody had to wait for me because I slowed to a crawl. From those experiences I learned to start eating breakfast and bringing food on the rides. Then I became the fast guy in the group. The last time we rode a century I drank a gallon of orange juice during the ride, and let everybody draft me for the last 10 miles because I was still feeling great.
This year I'm not as strong after being lazy over the winter. I put on some blubber, which proved to me that I can add body fat even when I'm hardly eating any fat. I heard the phrase " the fat you eat is the fat you wear." Apparently it's not the only fat you wear. I was also able to put on fat while eating ultra low carb, which some people told me I shouldn't happen because fat can't form when your insulin is low, and only carbs make your insulin go up. Of course, it's not that simple.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

Look for something at the same time:
1. absolutely harmless
2. beautiful
3. redundant in every sense, which, in principle, can be dispensed with, but which will not be worse (paragraph 1)
3. overpriced

Cars exterior tuning, for example (engines tuning and ECU mods are not absolutely harmless). This can be very expensive.
Bikes exterior tuning, for example (yes, I've seen a gold plated frame). Use of expensive professional components in custom bikes for non-athletes, for example.
There are a lot of things in fishing gear, in tourist and sports equipment, etc etc etc.

And all this is very good.
Our civilization is based on a constant movement from limitation to excess. From lack of food because the hunt failed - to agricultural technologies, from lack of energy and from children dying of hypothermia in winter - to thermonuclear fusion.
So don't touch the snake oil, this forum is a pure snake oil also

 

[virtua]

Look for something at the same time:
1. absolutely harmless
2. beautiful
3. redundant in every sense, which, in principle, can be dispensed with, but which will not be worse (paragraph 1)
3. overpriced

Cars exterior tuning, for example (engines tuning and ECU mods are not absolutely harmless). This can be very expensive.
Bikes exterior tuning, for example (yes, I've seen a gold plated frame). Use of expensive professional components in custom bikes for non-athletes, for example.
There are a lot of things in fishing gear, in tourist and sports equipment, etc etc etc.

And all this is very good.
Our civilization is based on a constant movement from limitation to excess. From lack of food because the hunt failed - to agricultural technologies, from lack of energy and from children dying of hypothermia in winter - to thermonuclear fusion.
So don't touch the snake oil, this forum is a pure snake oil also

The only thing is that the purpose of the above things you've mentioned is that all of those things are bought for a purpose and serve their purpose in a provable manner, there is nothing misleading about the claims of their functionality or purpose. Whether it's bought purely for aesthetics, or for example a non athlete cyclist gets electronic shifting instead of mechanical on their bicycle, it will be a functional improvement. Even in cases such as if one bicycle seat is much more expensive and weighs 10g less, it may be a trivial improvement but it's measurable and provable. Nobody on this forum would have an issue with hifi snake oil if it was only sold under the idea of being pretty looking objects. But it's sold as products which can increase the sound quality of an audio system which under controlled testing cannot be proven to be factual. The crux of the issue is that the claimed functionality of these products is deceitful while the former products are not.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

The only thing is that the purpose of the above things you've mentioned is that all of those things are bought for a purpose and serve their purpose in a provable manner, there is nothing misleading about the claims of their functionality or purpose. Whether it's bought purely for aesthetics, or for example a non athlete cyclist gets electronic shifting instead of mechanical on their bicycle, it will be a functional improvement. Even in cases such as if one bicycle seat is much more expensive and weighs 10g less, it may be a trivial improvement but it's measurable and provable. Nobody on this forum would have an issue with hifi snake oil if it was only sold under the idea of being pretty looking objects. But it's sold as products which can increase the sound quality of an audio system which under controlled testing cannot be proven to be factual.

Any snake oil implies not at all such improvements that are measurable.

You bought a trendy camping kit, yes, it is very beautiful and weighs a kilo less, but you have not become a more experienced hiker from this. But you feel like a steep hiker.
Did you buy a 4kg bike for the price of a car? But you didn't win the Tour de France. But how do you feel on this beautiful bike!
Did you replace the hood cover on the old Civic with Kevlar? Yes, the car has become lighter. But it didn't become a Ferrari, and you didn't become a race car driver. But you feel like the bolid owner.
You bought some crazy cable for a wild price, and in the end you hear the difference!
You have seen enough of incomprehensible graphs with some mysterious (for very many, after all, mysterious) decibels, and you feel like an experienced wise audiophile who has the right to teach.

It's all the same, it's all about feeling and perception.

 

[virtua]

Any snake oil implies not at all such improvements that are measurable.

You bought a trendy camping kit, yes, it is very beautiful and weighs a kilo less, but you have not become a more experienced hiker from this. But you feel like a steep hiker.
Did you buy a 4kg bike for the price of a car? But you didn't win the Tour de France. But how do you feel on this beautiful bike!
Did you replace the hood cover on the old Civic with Kevlar? Yes, the car has become lighter. But it didn't become a Ferrari, and you didn't become a race car driver. But you feel like the bolid owner.
You bought some crazy cable for a wild price, and in the end you hear the difference!
You have seen enough of incomprehensible graphs with some mysterious (for very many, after all, mysterious) decibels, and you feel like an experienced wise audiophile who has the right to teach.

It's all the same, it's all about feeling and perception.

It's true that the perception of benefit for each of the products listed often outweighs the true benefit, but that's natural - we are human after all and our perception of things often fools us. The main thing though is that none of those products are equivalent to, as you mentioned for example, an expensive audiophile cable because there is absolutely no objective benefit to be had from it, while the others do provide a benefit however trivial and poorly cost effective it is in the grand scheme of things. So in the context of this thread about snakeoil, I don't think it's really equivalent. An better example would be if someone sold fishing lines which were exactly the same as others but the manufacturer claims they have a magnetic pull for the tastiest and largest fish or something hahaha

 

[notsodeadlizard]

It's true that the perception of benefit for each of the products listed often outweighs the true benefit, but that's natural - we are human after all and our perception of things often fools us. The main thing though is that none of those products are equivalent to, as you mentioned for example, an expensive audiophile cable because there is absolutely no benefit to be had from it, while the others do provide a benefit however trivial and poorly cost effective it is in the grand scheme of things. So in the context of this thread about snakeoil, I don't think it's really equivalent.

Living people don't care.
Someone will hear the difference just because they finally saved up money for this stupid cable.
And someone will not hear the difference because these cables were installed along with an intoxicatingly expensive system, and this is what is characteristic - the cables did not make it worse.
As a result, everyone is absolutely indifferent to those 0.00000011% THD, which, with some skill, can be caught as an improvement due to the cable
I studied both metrology and statistics (metrology cannot live without statistics) and I understand well that in both sciences you can achieve any results you want (with some skills, LOL).

I don't condone snake oil, no.
And I try not to buy it.
But this "Great Snake Oil Battle" is just ridiculous.
Just because no one is forcing anyone to buy snake oil, these constant screams from the trenches on the other side say more about the screamers than anything else.
It turns out something like "look how smart we are!".
And this is always funny.

 

[Keith_W]

Previgen. It's supposed to improve memory, but there is no proof it works.

That reminds me, I forgot to take it this morning. Umm, where did I put it again?