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What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?
- Thread starter Marc v E
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #63
Norway has about 50% of homes heated by heat pumps, mostly air-air. Those are relatively affordable. Airconditioning units with a heat pump are examples of those.
The rest mainly comes from wood burning apparently and electric heating. Electricity prices have gone up since 2003, leaving the relatively cheap option of wood burning and the higher priced solution of heat pumps.
www.lifeinnorway.net
Sweden has about 54% of total energy needs met by renewable energy. They are investing in smart grids and local production for electric energy. For heating they rely for 75% on district heating, which is basically heating by a distributed network of pipes and using wood as biomass to burn. They want to be 100% relying on renewables by 2040.
www.weforum.org
The rest mainly comes from wood burning apparently and electric heating. Electricity prices have gone up since 2003, leaving the relatively cheap option of wood burning and the higher priced solution of heat pumps.
Heat Pumps: How Norwegians Pay Less for Heating
When buying or renting a house in Norway, you may come across a heat pump. Read about what they are and how they work. Ask any Norwegian how to reduce your energy bills and heat
www.lifeinnorway.net
Sweden has about 54% of total energy needs met by renewable energy. They are investing in smart grids and local production for electric energy. For heating they rely for 75% on district heating, which is basically heating by a distributed network of pipes and using wood as biomass to burn. They want to be 100% relying on renewables by 2040.
Transforming homes into power stations - how Sweden is disrupting energy production
Sweden is disrupting energy production by turning homes into renewable power stations, helping meet the EU’s 2030 energy targets
"What does it take to successfully transition to a green energy economy?"
I think perhaps the most important single device would be to price fossil fuels to include the cost of their use to the environment. Consumers need to feel the bite now. Governments need to impose carbon taxes. Such "Pigouvian taxes" dove tail ideally with market mechanisms and, I would guess, would be more effective than subsidies or arbitrary restrictions, (e.g. limiting pipe lines, construction of coal plants, requiring EVs or heat pumps by such & such date, etc.).
Further, I suggest that if nations, (e.g. the USA), are thinking of imposing tariffs, these ought to be applied exclusively on the basis that producing countries aren't imposing fossil fuel taxes on exports, or other measures to comparable effect.
I think perhaps the most important single device would be to price fossil fuels to include the cost of their use to the environment. Consumers need to feel the bite now. Governments need to impose carbon taxes. Such "Pigouvian taxes" dove tail ideally with market mechanisms and, I would guess, would be more effective than subsidies or arbitrary restrictions, (e.g. limiting pipe lines, construction of coal plants, requiring EVs or heat pumps by such & such date, etc.).
Further, I suggest that if nations, (e.g. the USA), are thinking of imposing tariffs, these ought to be applied exclusively on the basis that producing countries aren't imposing fossil fuel taxes on exports, or other measures to comparable effect.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #65
We don't have that much wood in the Netherlands, so that's not an option here, I'm afraid.
We do have large quantities of water, making a water-air heatpump a possibility. Air-air is also possible, but apparently less efficient. Heatpumps with pipes deep underground have the highest efficiency, but cost a lot more, which will probably limit their appeal.
We also have an almost constant supply of wind and a relatively large coastline, making windmills an obvious source of energy in winter times.
And of course "district heating" by waste heat from the industry around cities.
Based on the above I suspect we'll follow the example of Sweden for cities with waste heat from the industry. And using mainly air-air heatpumps based on efficiency and relatively lower costs, supplimented by electric heating. We could be using large water-air heatpumps by housing blocks, however that would require a lot of coordination and planning by our government agencies. Free standing houses will probably opt for more expensive heat pump solutions when gas and electricity prices stay high.
We do have large quantities of water, making a water-air heatpump a possibility. Air-air is also possible, but apparently less efficient. Heatpumps with pipes deep underground have the highest efficiency, but cost a lot more, which will probably limit their appeal.
We also have an almost constant supply of wind and a relatively large coastline, making windmills an obvious source of energy in winter times.
And of course "district heating" by waste heat from the industry around cities.
Based on the above I suspect we'll follow the example of Sweden for cities with waste heat from the industry. And using mainly air-air heatpumps based on efficiency and relatively lower costs, supplimented by electric heating. We could be using large water-air heatpumps by housing blocks, however that would require a lot of coordination and planning by our government agencies. Free standing houses will probably opt for more expensive heat pump solutions when gas and electricity prices stay high.
Noske
Active Member
Nukes, man, think nukes. We either need nuclear for base power or we need hugely better storage mechanisms and capacity.
Where I live nuclear is already the biggest source of electricity production. Ontario electrical energy sources, 2016 ...
The country where I live has abundant uranium reserves (along with enough cheap coal and natural gas to last for centuries).
Yet we currently have some of the highest per unit electricity prices in the world. Coal fired power stations are being imploded and no new ones are allowed to be built.
No nukes. There will be a day of reckoning where the opposition to nukes will have to capitulate.
Link
We will probably need each and every technology, although the particular mix will be country specific. Current prices are a powerful incentive from the market, and taxing fossil fuel use could reinforce that. The Netherlands have had a tax on energy use for quite a few years, and in order to speed up the green transition the tax on natural gas will be raised, and the proceeds used to lower the tax on electricity. This is how markets can be used.
For those not au fait with Pigou and his solution to the problem of negative externalities, this is the Wikipedia explanation: "A Pigouvian tax is a tax on any market activity that generates negative externalities. The tax is normally set by the government to correct an undesirable or inefficient market outcome and does so by being set equal to the external marginal cost of the negative externalities." Wikipedia also has a nice graphic representation for those who prefer that. Pigou was professor of economics at Cambridge University and one of the founding fathers of modern price theory.
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #70
Germany makes plans on transitioning to heat pumps:
www.cleanenergywire.org
75% heat pumps is their plan.
Geothermal heat pumps could cover 75% of Germany’s heating needs - report | Clean Energy Wire
www.cleanenergywire.org
75% heat pumps is their plan.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #71
You're right. I need better data on this to be able to compare.
Ewww shudder. I lived with forced air central heating for 7 years in one house and it sucked. The temperature in the house was constantly up and down and it's noisy..
the problem i have is that i see things thru what is a "centre right" kind of society... so my experience is with the CANZUS AUKUS type world... and even without a right wing government in power (where things would be absoluletly DIRE) I see no impetus for current governments to move out of fossil fuels because they are financed by fossil fuels.
and we still have this right wing rhetoric where our 'western' lifestyle would be compromised because we may live in a world where we cannot buy Thai or Chinese made large high powered diesel 4x4 light trucks because then we would not be able to 'explore this vast land' with our caravans and boats in tow.
And people buy into this shit.
And my speciality interest is the automotive world... and Germany is bucking away from the 2030/2035 EV world by saying they will only move forward if they are allowed ICE synthetic fuel cars... and Toyota is there with their hydrogen nonsense.
And now its up to the Chinese of all people to save us with a $25,000 EV SUV with 500km range. The same people we are at mortal combat with as far as nuclear subs go... but also our largest trading partner.
Our country has boundless sunshine and limitless gas but we have the highest energy costs because... we dont believe in alternative energy here...
btw. my Dutch friends... our leaders have said that they dont think that they should make any concessions just because a few Pacific islander nations would be underwater... that's their issue not ours... this is the political class here
and we still have this right wing rhetoric where our 'western' lifestyle would be compromised because we may live in a world where we cannot buy Thai or Chinese made large high powered diesel 4x4 light trucks because then we would not be able to 'explore this vast land' with our caravans and boats in tow.
And people buy into this shit.
And my speciality interest is the automotive world... and Germany is bucking away from the 2030/2035 EV world by saying they will only move forward if they are allowed ICE synthetic fuel cars... and Toyota is there with their hydrogen nonsense.
And now its up to the Chinese of all people to save us with a $25,000 EV SUV with 500km range. The same people we are at mortal combat with as far as nuclear subs go... but also our largest trading partner.
Our country has boundless sunshine and limitless gas but we have the highest energy costs because... we dont believe in alternative energy here...
btw. my Dutch friends... our leaders have said that they dont think that they should make any concessions just because a few Pacific islander nations would be underwater... that's their issue not ours... this is the political class here
The best answer is that most large cities in the world are actually along the sea shore. It is not just a few Pacific islands that will disappear.
There is hot water central heating. It's called radiant heating. We have it in our entire house. It has its own pros and cons. The pros are silent operation, adjustability at the room level, and good energy efficiency compared to gas, oil, or electric central forced air heat. The cons are slow start-up and shutoff, and potentially high repair costs should a leak develop. Our radiant heat lines run through a concrete slab, and it takes a non-trivial amount of time to heat the slab up before the rooms get heated. And then the problem happens in reverse when the outdoor temperature rises, the slab continues heating the home for a time after water heating stops. Radiant works best in areas with relative consistent temperatures. We live in the US desert southwest, and even in the winter the sun usually heats the house up, and then the turn-on of the radiant heat is delayed in the evening, followed by the clear skies at night resulting in low temperatures. The radiant heat stays active continuously to catch up, and then when the sun comes out again in the morning the house is over-warmed for a couple of hours. We've just learned to live with it.
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Our system has a smart thermostat that quite successfully anticipates heating requirement. The best way to use such systems is to minimize the temperature differences between night and day to no more than 2 Centigrades. Apparently this is cheaper/more energy efficient than turning the system off at night and starting up again in the morning. They say this is even more true with a heat pump as source. Anyway, now that we have improved the insulation of our home, even early in the morning on a freezing day the room temperature is still quite comfortable. So we have reprogrammed the clock on the thermostat to raise the temperature even later. By that time the sun has come out in force (we have huge windows facing South East), even in winter, and the heating system no longer comes on until the evening. Insulation is the key, for energy conservation, but also for comfort.
In our case we have floor heating, but also a few small radiators, and they respond much faster. If you bury the heat lines deep into the concrete the system will obviously be much slower than when you have them closer to the top.
In our case we have floor heating, but also a few small radiators, and they respond much faster. If you bury the heat lines deep into the concrete the system will obviously be much slower than when you have them closer to the top.
Heat pumps are hugely efficient given that our homes require heating and cool by external energy. In our location air-to-air heat pumps are marginal because of our still relatively cold winters, (despite global warming).Germany makes plans on transitioning to heat pumps:
Geothermal heat pumps could cover 75% of Germany’s heating needs - report | Clean Energy Wire
75% heat pumps is their plan.
30+ years ago I saw a posh home in the Rosedale neighbourhood of Toronto being fitted with an air-to-ground heat pump. Efficiency-wise there are the best way to go but are very expensive especially if retrofitted. (Not my home, BTW; one that would hit the market today for maybe C$3-4 million). Note that the in-ground pipes these heat pumps must be installed below the frost line; that's pretty deep in some regions of Canada.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #79
Central heating in the Netherlands is different I suspect.
It is a system of radiators that receive warm water from the central heating unit, which is running on gas and usually on the highest floor. The result is no noise and heating on demand all around the house, with temperature regulators on every radiator.
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That's not really practical with our radiant heat system, as we have 12 thermostats... and maybe I missed one or two while counting. Each bedroom has one, each full bathroom has one, two in our main hallway, etc. There are also three central A/C systems, each with its own thermostat. For these I am considering replacing them with internet-connected ones which can have remote sensors, but I just haven't got around to it in several years. I'm getting lazy in my old age.
The radiant heat systems here for slabs are actually rather sophisticated. Not just tubes in concrete. Multiple layers including insulation and vapor barriers. You also have to be careful with carpeting, like choosing a thin, dense, rubber padding (which costs a lot more than foam padding), and dense low-pile carpeting. Stone floors can develop cracks if the water temperature goes above about 120F. Wood flooring is not recommended at all. Ceramic tile is the best for in-slab radiant heat, though tiles have their own pros and cons. We didn't design our house, and knowing what I know now I'd probably still go with radiant heat, but I would use ceramic tile throughout the house. I've never been a fan of wall-to-wall carpet, which is so popular in the US.
I should also mention that our boiler is gas-fired. I've talked to a couple of people in our area with large solar arrays and they've installed electric boilers, and both went to tankless hot water heaters at the same time. They both had nothing good to say about tankless hot water heaters (reliability issues), but they thought electric radiant heat boilers were better than gas if you have a solar array of sufficient capacity. The gas models do not have variable output burners, but the electric models do (element modulation), which makes them more efficient. Without solar electric radiant boilers are apparently very expensive to operate, so they were told.
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