What do floor standers really bring to the table?

[Sal1950]

You want loud bass, you have to move a lot of air.
The bigger the room, the harder it is.
No free lunches with bass.

 

[MarkS]

4 devices listed starting at USD225, easy walk-through instructions to do it properly.

4 devices, all from the same tiny company that most audiophiles have never heard of, and which has exactly one dealer in the US (Deer Creek Audio in Colorado).

 

[sigbergaudio]

4 devices, all from the same tiny company that most audiophiles have never heard of, and which has exactly one dealer in the US (Deer Creek Audio in Colorado).

The fact that most audiophiles have never heard of MiniDSP kind of underlines my point of the slow progress on this topic. DSP in general is typically shunned by audiophiles, despite the fact that it could make a world of difference to the sound quality of their system (as opposed to their high end cables, damping feet and noise supressors).

 

[Newman]

4 devices, all from the same tiny company that most audiophiles have never heard of, and which has exactly one dealer in the US (Deer Creek Audio in Colorado).

What’s a ‘dealer’?

It’s a new world with new opportunities, and if dealers aren’t offering this sort of stuff then they deserve to be bypassed and all that comes with that. Their choice.

 

[mj30250]

Yeah, MiniDSP certainly isn't scarce. Scarcity implies that supply is low and it's difficult to find. Anyone can purchase it directly from their site, or even Amazon, and have it within days. Even room correction found on some mid-tier receivers/pre-pros can do a nice job these days.

 

[HighImpactAV]

4 devices, all from the same tiny company that most audiophiles have never heard of, and which has exactly one dealer in the US (Deer Creek Audio in Colorado).

PartsExpress carries most miniDSP products for US customers. However, even though I have a business account with PartsExpress, I usually just order direct from miniDSP. It takes only a few days via DHL to get the products.

 

[juliangst]

In general I would consider DSP devices very scarce in the audiophile world.
I can’t think of many audiophile alternatives to mini dsp.
Maybe that Accuphase DSP device, trinnov, DEQX and some 2 channel Lyngdorf devices and that’s it.

 

[symphara]

In general I would consider DSP devices very scarce in the audiophile world.
I can’t think of many audiophile alternatives to mini dsp.
Maybe that Accuphase DSP device, trinnov, DEQX and some 2 channel Lyngdorf devices and that’s it.

Most audiophiles I know would have trouble configuring a Chromecast, much less DSP. Which is much more complicated and sometimes downright daunting (like Dirac).

Plus, DSP puts some lossy transform in your signal path. It might be worth it or it might not.

I couldn’t integrate speakers + sub using RoomPerfect. Complete, abject failure (no bass, no idea why), one day wasted.

I managed to integrate speakers + sub using Audyssey, in one room only. In a different room, speakers + sub sound lifeless with Audyssey, like you put curtains on the speakers.

It’s hard work and few have the skill and the time.

 

[MarkS]

I couldn’t integrate speakers + sub using RoomPerfect. Complete, abject failure (no bass, no idea why), one day wasted.

As a Lyngdorf owner: RoomPerfect doesn't integrate subwoofers. You have to do that yourself first, by choosing a crossover point and and high-pass and low-pass filters in Output Setup on the web interface, and also a delay time (for which you have to ask the subwoofer manufacturer) and distances to speakers and sub(s). The crossover choices should ideally be made by first doing extensive measurements with REW and a UMIK1 of each speaker and the sub(s) seperately, and trying to get peaks and dips first minimized by speaker and sub placement.

Or just pick something, which is what I did: 60Hz, LR4 for each slope.

THEN you run RoomPerfect to equalize the overall sound.

As I understand it, Dirac Live also does not do sub integration, unless you additionally have Dirac Live Bass Control, which is AFAIK is not available on any MiniDSP device.

So: easy-to-use and not-that-expensive bass management simply does not exist in the 2.x world.

 

[juliangst]

It's kinda funny that those 'Audiophiles' tinker around with power and speaker cables for hours and days but are too lazy or afraid of software that actually does something for sound quality.
I think high end DACs like DCS, MSB and similar DACs should at least include some PEQ bands to control room modes.
At their specific price points having simple features like PEQ isn't much to ask for imho

 

[Newman]

4 devices listed starting at USD225, easy walk-through instructions to do it properly.

As I understand it, Dirac Live also does not do sub integration, unless you additionally have Dirac Live Bass Control, which is AFAIK is not available on any MiniDSP device.

So: easy-to-use and not-that-expensive bass management simply does not exist in the 2.x world.

Did you even read the first line -- the HEADLINE -- of the link in my post above? The post that you have replied to twice now?

Here, I'll write it down for you: "Subwoofer Integration with miniDSP and REW".

And that's without even having Dirac -- either version.

Step by step -- pretty darned easy.

USD225 -- not that expensive.

 

[MarkS]

By easy-to-use, I mean not being required to make and interpret measurements with a computer.

This functionality exists in the AVR world, not in the 2.x world.

 

[symphara]

As a Lyngdorf owner: RoomPerfect doesn't integrate subwoofers. You have to do that yourself first, by choosing a crossover point and and high-pass and low-pass filters in Output Setup on the web interface, and also a delay time (for which you have to ask the subwoofer manufacturer) and distances to speakers and sub(s). The crossover choices should ideally be made by first doing extensive measurements with REW and a UMIK1 of each speaker and the sub(s) seperately, and trying to get peaks and dips first minimized by speaker and sub placement.

Or just pick something, which is what I did: 60Hz, LR4 for each slope.

THEN you run RoomPerfect to equalize the overall sound.

That's literally what I did. The whole thing - UMIK, REW, crossover, moving the thing around (SB3000, counts as doing Crossfit I think), then RoomPerfect cuts ALL the bass away.

Worked fine, same procedure, with Amphions and the little push-pull SVS subwoofer, sorry name escapes now.

At home I integrated my Triangle Meteor subwoofer by ear. Then I measured with REW and it's as good as it sounds, which is spot on.

The saving grace in the first case was that after giving up on the sub (left it on AV alone), I simply ran RoomPerfect on the speakers themselves and that's good enough, they get about 20Hz anyway and bass sounds incredible.

PS: as I understand it, Dirac Live does offer bass control but it will control just one sub. If you want individual bass control for multiple subs you need DBLC. I also think that miniDSP2x4[HD] does two subwoofers, independently. I have no experience with either technology.

 

[Newman]

By easy-to-use, I mean not being required to make and interpret measurements with a computer.

This functionality exists in the AVR world, not in the 2.x world.

Ouch. What century are we in? A 10-year-old would find the miniDSP easy to implement with the step by step instructions provided.

I assume you are not speaking on your own behalf, given what you wrote about setting up your Lyngdorf with REW, but you are writing on behalf of 2-channel traditionalists who are set in their ways?

I do get your point though! But these same lazy/ease-of-use-obsessed technophobic recalcitrants, who have no complaints about being told to crawl around the crevices of their room with a SPL meter in one hand and a notepad in the other, following 'audiophile-approved instructions' in search of a decent location for their speakers to raise their bass sound quality from execrable to half-okay-ish, who recoil in horror at the prospect of using a highly affordable mid-level AVR ("not audiophile! not audiophile!") with 5 channels of audibly-transparent pre-out to convert their 2.0 to 2.1 using integrated software and free microphone, yet who eagerly fiddle and twiddle countless hours away with their tonearm adjustments and record cleaners and installing their latest ebony-over-sapphire-splinters cartridge using a magnifying glass and jeweller's tools -- these guys are going to recoil at spending maybe 2 hours with a microphone and easy software and the cheapest audio component they have ever purchased, even when the reward is the best bass they have ever had by a long way, and that can as a bonus sweeten up the top end subjectively and give them the best overall sound quality they ever had? No to that? Really?

Well leave them to it, I say.

 

[Rednaxela]

It's kinda funny that those 'Audiophiles' tinker around with power and speaker cables for hours and days but are too lazy or afraid of software that actually does something for sound quality.
I think high end DACs like DCS, MSB and similar DACs should at least include some PEQ bands to control room modes.
At their specific price points having simple features like PEQ isn't much to ask for imho

Agree 100%.

 

[symphara]

It's kinda funny that those 'Audiophiles' tinker around with power and speaker cables for hours and days but are too lazy or afraid of software that actually does something for sound quality.

This is really uncharitable if not downright unpleasant. From what I’ve seen, people are simply intimidated or find software solutions highly technical and thus unapproachable. Changing cables, while ineffective, is something that anyone can do.

 

[Rednaxela]

This is really uncharitable if not downright unpleasant. From what I’ve seen, people are simply intimidated or find software solutions highly technical and thus unapproachable. Changing cables, while ineffective, is something that anyone can do.

Have to agree with you too.

REW is not the most intuitive tool to learn, and can be very intimidating.

 

[Rednaxela]

So what to do?

 

[Newman]

It's not uncharitable, it's just exposing the inconsistency of recoiling from simple software with user instructions as 'highly technical', while eagerly delving into no less highly technical tasks like mastering tonearm adjustment and cartridge alignment -- complete with special tools and real risk of expensive calamity.

So what to do?

Just get on with it. Learn and enjoy.

 

[symphara]

So what to do?

Nothing, I guess. There's no money in doing something, as far as I can tell.

The people who really care about it and have the know-how will manage with complicated solutions.

Most listen to soundbars and smart speakers anyway. We have friends who bought a beautiful, multi-million dollar apartment in Zürich and put Sonos everywhere, and then very proudly presented their "amazing HiFi". I nodded and smiled. What else can you do? People just don't care.