What do floor standers really bring to the table?

[Chromatischism]

After reading this thread I still don't get the benefits of a floorstander compared to booksheves, both with subs.

The main speaker's position is not the best position for bass so in any case you'd want to highpass the mains and hand bass over to dual or quadrupel subs for best results.
But then, mostly the midwoofers and tweeter would have to do the work so all the advantages of having a large cabinet with bass drivers vanishes.

So what's really the point of having subwoofer like drivers in a floorstander (Magico M9 come to my mind; the bass drivers are crossed over at 125Hz)
if the optimal position for mids and highs is not the optimal position for bass?

It makes more sense with bass drivers that are crossed higher, like 250 or 500 Hz. On a speaker like the Arendal 1723 which is crossed at 120 Hz, it doesn't make sense to use them with subs.

 

[Newman]

Maybe bigger just is better

Quite right, it might be all between the ears.

 

[Newman]

It makes more sense with bass drivers that are crossed higher, like 250 or 500 Hz.

How does it make more sense?

 

[Sancus]

So what's really the point of having subwoofer like drivers in a floorstander (Magico M9 come to my mind; the bass drivers are crossed over at 125Hz)

People don't like setting up subs and most cannot do it well enough. It's pretty challenging if you don't understand how things work and don't have the right tools. If you plug things into a sub and use the built-in crossover tuned by ear, your integration is almost always bad. And so that's what people think subs sound like.

Assuming you have the knowledge and tools to set up a good multi-sub system ,it is better than sub drivers in speakers.

That said, you still need big woofers for satisfying output from 80-300hz *especially* in larger rooms and listening distances. Subs cannot help you there and bookshelves, other than some very large rare ones, are not that capable.

 

[juliangst]

Arendal 1723 which is crossed at 120 Hz, it doesn't make sense to use them with subs

To me those kind of speakers don’t make sense at all.
Bass that low should be produced by a sub that is placed in the most optimal position in the room which most likely is not the position of the speaker itself

 

[mj30250]

In my limited experience:

I prefer competently engineered 3-ways to similarly competently engineered 2-ways every time. There are vastly more options for 3-way floorstanders than bookshelves.

In general, floorstanders have better bass output and extension. Even if integrating subs with a crossover, good bass below the crossover makes it easier.

Good bass above the crossover is also important. Floorstanders with bigger and/or more bass drivers helps here.

Of course, there are a multitude of terrible floorstanders just as there are several exceptional bookshelves. All of this assumes that you are comparing designs of similar overall quality.

 

[Chrispy]

I get this point but I don’t understand the benefit of floorstanders doing subwoofer frequencies like 20-30Hz or even lower.

If a brand offers a smaller and large speaker that are mostly identical, isn’t it much smarter to get the smaller floorstanders from that product range that’s only linear to ~40Hz and spend the difference in price on subs?

Floorstanders than can do legit low distortion high spl output at very low frequencies are very rare and doesn't mean they can't benefit from better below schroeder performance vs well placed/capable subs.....

 

[Newman]

That said, you still need big woofers for satisfying output from 80-300hz *especially* in larger rooms and listening distances. Subs cannot help you there and bookshelves, other than some very large rare ones, are not that capable.

That would have to be a pretty huge room, that could not deliver satisfying 80-300 Hz from any of these non-floor-standers...

(actually overkill, but since Magico has been mentioned...)

PMC

And I'm sure quite a few more...

 

[MarkS]

To me those kind of speakers don’t make sense at all.
Bass that low should be produced by a sub that is placed in the most optimal position in the room which most likely is not the position of the speaker itself

A sub crossed that high can be localized.

For me, it's bookshelf speakers on stands that make no sense: they just waste the space below them. Build out that cabinet, and take advantage of the extra volume!

 

[Newman]

and take advantage of the extra volume!

In what way? That's the thread question.

 

[valerianf]

@juliangst "After reading this thread I still don't get the benefits of a floorstander compared to booksheves, both with subs."
The answer is that you need to use some large floorstander, full band, without any sub but with a powerful amp.
Remenber that a 10" subwoofer has an integrated amplifier rated from 100W to 600W.
Thus if you couple a dual 10" floorstander with a x00W power amp you will easily be able to crank up the low frequencies (EQ is there for that).
For music it will be far better than a subwoofer and for movies it should be sufficient.

 

[Newman]

For music it will be far better than a subwoofer

Evidence? I ask because I know there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

[Chromatischism]

For music it will be far better than a subwoofer and for movies it should be sufficient.

Not better than my subwoofer(s).

 

[MarkS]

In what way? That's the thread question.

Generally lower distortion in the base range (well above the subwoofer crossover), due to room for more bass drivers.

 

[sigbergaudio]

@juliangst "After reading this thread I still don't get the benefits of a floorstander compared to booksheves, both with subs."
The answer is that you need to use some large floorstander, full band, without any sub but with a powerful amp.
Remenber that a 10" subwoofer has an integrated amplifier rated from 100W to 600W.
Thus if you couple a dual 10" floorstander with a xxxW power amp you will easily be able to crank up the low frequencies (EQ is there for that).
For music it will be far better than a subwoofer and for movies it should be sufficient.

Quite the contrary, a well integrated, competent subwoofer will always perform better than almost any floorstander on music.

To me those kind of speakers don’t make sense at all.
Bass that low should be produced by a sub that is placed in the most optimal position in the room which most likely is not the position of the speaker itself

Large floorstanders make obvious sense since there are lots of people who don't want a subwoofer in their setup. Also, the industry and adjustment in the market takes time. Even though we've had good subs for many many years, the majority of audiophiles are still skeptical, and think subwoofers are a thing for movies rather than music.

 

[Newman]

Generally lower distortion in the base range (well above the subwoofer crossover), due to room for more bass drivers.

There is room for at least 3 bass drivers on a standmount speaker.

 

[MarkS]

Subwoofer skepticism is warranted, because properly integrating a subwoofer (or 2 or 4 ...) is not easy, and electronics to do it properly in the 2.x channel world are very scarce.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Subwoofer skepticism is warranted, because properly integrating a subwoofer (or 2 or 4 ...) is not easy, and electronics to do it properly in the 2.x channel world are very scarce.

That is indeed true, but it's worth the effort. But I perfectly understand that it's not for everyone.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Subwoofer skepticism is warranted, because properly integrating a subwoofer (or 2 or 4 ...) is not easy, and electronics to do it properly in the 2.x channel world are very scarce.

Frankly, I found it very easy to do with Dirac Live. Much easier than I expected and the result sounds completely cohesive to me and my pretty discerning buddy.
Not sure about multi-sub setups though, these may be more complicated.

Personally, I can no longer listen w/o the sub.

 

[Newman]

properly integrating a subwoofer (or 2 or 4 ...) is not easy, and electronics to do it properly in the 2.x channel world are very scarce.

4 devices listed starting at USD225, easy walk-through instructions to do it properly.