Vinyl will always sound *different* than digital, right?

[FrankW]

I think you are missing that many of the musicians aren't just extolling vinyl "so that people will purchase their vinyl." They themselves often mention how they enjoy - some even prefer - vinyl as a musical medium. And even how they find that physical vinyl copy to feel the most "concrete" form of their achievement in putting out a record.

How do you know that as a fact?

 

[krabapple]

Reminds me, I was recently watching an interview with Björn Ulvaeus of ABBA who talked about recently purchasing a new hi-fi and turntable set up, that he has enjoyed the experience and wistfully saying in a nostalgic way "there's something about the sound..."

"Especially when I can hold the record in my hand and look at the cover and also cue it up on a TT and also watch it spin and oooh gee willikers* it's like I'm 17 again"


IOW that 'something about the sound' has lots to do with nothing audible at all.






*in Swedish no less

 

[MattHooper]

Well I'm an artist who makes about $60 a month on streaming and who much prefers CDs to vinyl.

I don't think it's a hidden agenda at all. Artists prefer physical formats generally for a lot of reasons, and "we actually make money on them" is a big one.

Oh I totally agree with you that vinyl is often significant to artists in terms of monetary sales! Especially lower tier artists. I've seen some say that vinyl sales
has helped keep them afloat!

My point is that reducing artist feelings about their work on vinyl only to that concern doesn't capture all their motivations and feelings about
vinyl. I've seen so many interviews, in print and on video (and know musicians putting music out on vinyl) in which the musicians have expressed their own
joy over the medium, and also how the physical aspects affect their own perception - e.g. how seeing and holding their music in the physical form of a record
gives a more concrete sense of accomplishment vs just sending their work out in to the digital ether. And this is entirely plausible since vinyl enthusiasts report the very same relationship of owning vinyl vs streaming.

I'm not cynical enough to presume this is all marketing, and not sincere as it seems to be.

 

[Newman]

They [LP] do have some distortion mechanisms that can, in the best of times, help out the stereo illusion. Obviously, that can be done in digital as well.

What do you think about this comment, on LP having an artificial sense of depth, by Ken Kreisel (who, among other stuff including M&K, opened the world's first exclusively direct-to-disc recording studio and its companion company, RealTime Records in 1977)?

"People talk about depth in an
LP, and they say, "Oh, listen to that great room ambience." Well a lot of
the room ambience LP listeners think they are hearing is groove echo! When
you listen to an LP you can easily hear pre-echo right before a track starts
and post-echo when it ends. And that's going on all through the LP!
There's an "echo" button on cutting lathes that spreads the grooves apart before
and after a transition from a quiet passage to a loud one, to reduce intergroove
echo. But that uses up a lot of space. If you used that all the time, you'd
only be able to get seven minutes on a side.
What people don't realize is that on an LP, you're constantly listening to
a lot of pre- and post-echo, conveying an artificial depth that was never
heard by the microphones, ..."

Cheers

 

[j_j]

What do you think about this comment, on LP having an artificial sense of depth, by Ken Kreisel (who, among other stuff including M&K, opened the world's first exclusively direct-to-disc recording studio and its companion company, RealTime Records in 1977)?

"People talk about depth in an
LP, and they say, "Oh, listen to that great room ambience." Well a lot of
the room ambience LP listeners think they are hearing is groove echo! When
you listen to an LP you can easily hear pre-echo right before a track starts
and post-echo when it ends. And that's going on all through the LP!
There's an "echo" button on cutting lathes that spreads the grooves apart before
and after a transition from a quiet passage to a loud one, to reduce intergroove
echo. But that uses up a lot of space. If you used that all the time, you'd
only be able to get seven minutes on a side.
What people don't realize is that on an LP, you're constantly listening to
a lot of pre- and post-echo, conveying an artificial depth that was never
heard by the microphones, ..."

Cheers

That's just a start of the effects on an LP.

 

[Galliardist]

If the ARTIST got more money, I might like that idea.

But I don't think ARTISTS ever get any money from recorded music these days, that's how it seems to work.

It depends on the artist and the medium. If I buy a private label CD at a small classical concert, most of the money goes to the artist, even if they are probably paying off the pressing cost for the first few dozen copies.

On the other hand, the purpose of most recordings these days is simply to be heard, or to get released on your nostalgic format. If you're a rock band that started in the CD era, you may simply just want to hold or hear your own music on an LP, regardless of what anyone else thinks, and the economics just about allow it if you've a following of sorts.

With enough potential buyers, crowdfunding is used for some albums. I've contributed money that way for three or four CDs now. It does enough to pay the bills and anything from streaming later is a bonus.

A recording is also a tool to get an artist bookings, and maybe help to get an academic position in some fields. Being a recorded artist may impress potential students as well: teaching is a big part of being a working musician these days, as always.

 

[Newman]

That's just a start of the effects on an LP.

OK thanks, I take your comment to implicitly agree that the effect is real and its cause is as described by Kreisel.

 

[j_j]

OK thanks, I take your comment to implicitly agree that the effect is real and its cause is as described by Kreisel.

I would disagree on the kind of effect, but pre and post groove echo is certainly a thing.

Also: Please do not EVER dare to extend my comments beyond what I said.

 

[sejarzo]

What do you think about this comment, on LP having an artificial sense of depth, by Ken Kreisel (who, among other stuff including M&K, opened the world's first exclusively direct-to-disc recording studio and its companion company, RealTime Records in 1977)?

"People talk about depth in an
LP, and they say, "Oh, listen to that great room ambience." Well a lot of
the room ambience LP listeners think they are hearing is groove echo! When
you listen to an LP you can easily hear pre-echo right before a track starts
and post-echo when it ends. And that's going on all through the LP!
There's an "echo" button on cutting lathes that spreads the grooves apart before
and after a transition from a quiet passage to a loud one, to reduce intergroove
echo. But that uses up a lot of space. If you used that all the time, you'd
only be able to get seven minutes on a side.
What people don't realize is that on an LP, you're constantly listening to
a lot of pre- and post-echo, conveying an artificial depth that was never
heard by the microphones, ..."

Cheers

From the original liner notes on Steely Dan's "Katy Lied" LP:

I thought I had read a few years later that this was accomplished with an extra playback head on the deck feeding the mastering lathe positioned ahead of the actual playback head. I always assumed it had to be the equivalent of (60/33.3333) seconds plus some buffer time, thus being ahead at least one revolution of the lacquer plus whatever processing time was required. The system could thus determine the level and automatically adjust on the fly instead of manual intervention.

 

[JP]

It does but depending on the length of the side more spacing may be needed than the nominal target pitch in special circumstances.

 

[j_j]

It does but depending on the length of the side more spacing may be needed than the nominal target pitch in special circumstances.

Bass is the classic problem there, usually. Of course, then consider the reality of "out of phase bass" and why there isn't any suddenly becomes very obvious.

 

[MattHooper]

How do you know that as a fact?

I've followed the vinyl revival for many years, seen a great many interviews and discussions about it, including musicians. I mean...I already gave examples in this thread.

 

[JP]

Bass is the classic problem there, usually. Of course, then consider the reality of "out of phase bass" and why there isn't any suddenly becomes very obvious.

Yes but the pitch computer can handle the program material, whereas the 'echo' button seemed to have an explicit purpose in addition for which it was named. Can't say I'm aware of anyone that actually uses it.

10-4 on the 'out of phase bass'. It can be a very entertaining hobby, in a kind of sad way.

 

[Newman]

Also: Please do not EVER dare to extend my comments beyond what I said.

Surely it is okay to try to understand the meaning and implications of what you said, and check with you if my understanding is on the right track? It’s Good Communications 101. My apologies if that offends you.

 

[j_j]

Surely it is okay to try to understand the meaning and implications of what you said, and check with you if my understanding is on the right track? It’s Good Communications 101. My apologies if that offends you.

Your statement was completely out of line with what I said to you. This has happened any number of times, with various people claiming "jj said this" and "jj said that", and no, no I didn't.

 

[FrankW]

I've followed the vinyl revival for many years, seen a great many interviews and discussions about it, including musicians. I mean...I already gave examples in this thread.

Yes, I'm aware you like vinyl and thus view artist comments through this prism. I also noticed how you went from

(Jah'Mila) That is how I want to be remembered," she said. "Not an old CD that is in the junk somewhere but when people listen to it they put it back very carefully in the package."

To

the physical aspects affect their own perception - e.g. how seeing and holding their music in the physical form of a record gives a more concrete sense of accomplishment vs just sending their work out in to the digital ether.

How is CD not physical media? If artists like Jah'Mila et al so love the sound of vinyl, why aren't their digital versions just vinyl rips? Those would certainly capture every "sound" of vinyl, minus the wear/variability over time. The one actual artist who posted in thread admitted the $$ of vinyl was the big factor. Rest is hearsay.
Btw, have turntable and a few records that don't exist as "digital ether". All ripped.

 

[MattHooper]

Yes, I'm aware you like vinyl and thus view artist comments through this prism. I also noticed how you went from

To

How is CD not physical media? If artists like Jah'Mila et al so love the sound of vinyl, why aren't their digital versions just vinyl rips? Those would certainly capture every "sound" of vinyl, minus the wear/variability over time. The one actual artist who posted in thread admitted the $$ of vinyl was the big factor. Rest is hearsay.
Btw, have turntable and a few records that don't exist as "digital ether". All ripped.

First: I was pointing out that many artists aren't just cynically talking positively about vinyl *just because* it would promote sales, but that many feel themselves something special they like about vinyl above the other formats. That's why I included:

Halifax reggae singer Jah'Mila did a small run of vinyl of her debut album Roots Girl.

"Somehow the music sounds richer," she said. "There is something very nostalgic for me about the sound."

Second: where did I (or anyone in the interview) say CD is not physical media? I'm talking about the motivations artists have in putting their music on vinyl, specifically.

It seems you just don't get why both many vinyl consumers and many artists like vinyl in particular: It's larger form factor making the artwork and packaging appealing, the analog nature of the technology and nostalgia factor, the long continuity with the past record business in how all the great musicians released their music, people really like turntables, many like the sound of vinyl, and all the physical aspects of vinyl seem to give a certain gravitas to owning/holding/playing/listening to music on that format. The artists who like vinyl like it generally for the SAME reasons listeners do! If you actually can't understand this could be so, I think you are missing some component of understanding human psychology on such issues.

So for instance:

Why is vinyl so popular among indie artists?

In the last decade, we noticed a rise in the number of musicians who released music in vinyl records from Lady Gaga to U2 to Metallica to BTS. More and more people are dusting off their old turntab…

indiepulsemusic.com

One example is Ty Segall, an American multi-instrumentalist, singer-songwriter and record producer. They keep pressing vinyl records for their releases. In an interview with Fast Company, they said they sell more from vinyl than from CDs.


“We sell significantly less CDs than records at shows,” says Emily Epstein, who drums in the band. “Sometimes we’ll only sell one or two CDs a night. Records are still always king in terms of what people want at our merch table.”


When asked why they think this is so, they agreed that it’s because of the user experience.


“We all love getting a record, putting it on, spending time with it, looking at the gatefolds, reading all the liner notes–so it’s been fun to create a complete experience.”

^^^ See how the artist clearly includes himself "we all love..." in finding vinyl to be the more "complete" experience for the record buyer?

More?

Releasing albums on vinyl might not be profitable for local bands, but many have no regrets​

Releasing albums on vinyl might not be profitable for local bands, but many have no regrets

For well over a decade, the vinyl industry has been booming. In 2018, sales were at a 25-year high, with 16.8 million units sold that...

www.leoweekly.com

From the artist on the significance of releasing on vinyl:

“It made my dream a little more real to me,” said Rommell Weaver, who performs under Rmllw2llz and who released his 2017 album Concerto No. 9 Movement II on vinyl. “I felt established. I thought about how all of my favorite artists are on vinyl and now I am too. I felt blessed. And blessed to even be able to do it.”


“Regardless of making money and all that, it’s still always cool to have something you did on a record,” Perry said. “So for someone who’s never made a record, I would recommend it. Every time. In 2050, you’re not going to pull out a record you made three decades ago and say, ‘Man, we really shouldn’t have made this.’”


The Author ends with: Every musician I talked to about their vinyl experience said, unequivocally, that they don’t regret it, even if they lost money. In 30 years, it’s awfully hard to imagine that, once you lay the needle down, the magic won’t still be there. •

------------------

So, many of these artists clearly find some added personal satisfaction from releasing on vinyl rather than just digital streaming EVEN if they lost money doing so, and they give reasons like the ones I've been pointing out.

Which speaks exactly to my point. And there are tons of similar such testimonies from artists over the years during the vinyl revival.

 

[Newman]

An artist’s cognitive bias is no reason for an audiophile to buy into their distorted views.

So why should it be interesting?

 

[levimax]

An artist’s cognitive bias is no reason for an audiophile to buy into their distorted views.

So why should it be interesting?

Some people find trying to understand different points of view than their own to be interesting, others not so much.

 

[MattHooper]

An artist’s cognitive bias is no reason for an audiophile to buy into their distorted views.

Ha! That's like saying why should I buy in to any artists view? Why buy a surrealist painting if that would just serve to justify the artist's 'distorted view?'
Why? Because the painting represents the experience the artist intends.

Again, mine was a jibe on the whole "artists intent" view. IF someone cared so much about the "artists intent," then in some cases musicians have expressed the idea they view their vinyl release as the "ultimate" expression of the experience they'd like to provide. That can be in regards to sound character, where some musicians themselves prefer the sonic character of vinyl, or it can be simply due to how they find the physical aspects of the media enrich the product...or both.

Sort of the difference between take out from a fine restaurant, or dining in, where it's the same food but if you can swing it, the chef would likely feel the full dining in experience is his vision for how the customer will experience the food.

So why should it be interesting?

It's not, for someone who isn't interested in...certain cases...buying an artist's music in the form the artist suggests is their ultimate expression...or if you don't share with that artist the "benefits" of vinyl.

Again...it's this little thing about trying to understand how other people think, not just oneself.