Vinyl will always sound *different* than digital, right?

[Galliardist]

Musicians as a cohort have no exposure to learning or training about things like the sighted listening effect. They spend their entire lives and professions thinking they are judging sound waves with their ears, sighted.

Even if they did know about it, they don’t run around doing blind listening tests of instruments to decide on which one to play, so either they don’t know about it or they are resistant to the learning.

This part of your post misunderstands the relationship between musicians and instruments, and what musicians do. Musicians are effectively dealing with aspects of music and sound organisation that can be done sighted, and are trained to be able to deal with those aspects. One thing is that musicians know that they are also using their experience, training and knowledge to judge how sound is produced and manipulated on instruments, not just their ears. Choosing an instrument is about a relationship to that instrument: sometimes it has meaning outside of just performing, a large part is what that instrument will do when the musician uses and adapts their technique to manipulate its sound,

Choosing an instrument is about more than just the sound of that instrument as you mean it. In Western tradition classical music, we have sometimes to subsume personal choice to the form of the music, both how it was meant at the time it was written, and the tradition that has grown up around it which leads to the performance practices we have today. The choice of an instrument will reflect that: and that is the learning that is important. Violinists may prefer modern instruments in blind tests, but the tradition of violin playing is more important than just the basic tone of the instrument used: the opportunity to play a famous old instrument sits better in their tradition. Different traditions and genre rules will provide different pressures on musicians, but similar concerns will exist.

It is fairly clear from the literature that being a musician does not really help in judging the performance of loudspeakers by listening to them: I have no problem with the rest of your post.

 

[Newman]

Happy with that but I was responding to the use of artist testimonials as somehow special and saying anything relevant to the sonic attributes of vinyl. I don’t think those testimonials are interesting when used for that purpose.

 

[FrankW]

Fact: artists, including lesser know ones, make more $$ off each vinyl record sold.
Opinion: These artists are all sincere when then profess to love vinyl online, coincidentally, just like audiophiles do. (None release vinyl rips despite the "richer" sound.)
Fun Fact: Audiophiles can't discern between facts and opinions.

Btw, if part of the "real" allure of vinyl is not so much just the sound, but very much the ritualism on putting on records, storage, etc, what is the MoFi lawsuit about??

 

[Galliardist]

Fact: artists, including lesser know ones, make more $$ off each vinyl record sold.
Opinion: These artists are all sincere when then profess to love vinyl online, coincidentally, just like audiophiles do. (None release vinyl rips despite the "richer" sound.)
Fun Fact: Audiophiles can't discern between facts and opinions.

Btw, if part of the "real" allure of vinyl is not so much just the sound, but very much the ritualism on putting on records, storage, etc, what is the MoFi lawsuit about??

They'd make more money if that disc was a CD - cheaper and easier to get printed and packaged.
So why a vinyl record? They have to sell more or take a loss on the exercise. I still say it's a status or ego thing. Get to hold your LP record in your hands, just like the great bands of the 1960s and 70s. Where's that feeling if the disc is small and silver? You're a proper musician with an LP.

 

[Mart68]

They'd make more money if that disc was a CD - cheaper and easier to get printed and packaged.
So why a vinyl record? They have to sell more or take a loss on the exercise. I still say it's a status or ego thing. Get to hold your LP record in your hands, just like the great bands of the 1960s and 70s. Where's that feeling if the disc is small and silver? You're a proper musician with an LP.

I know someone who has just released her album on vinyl for pretty much this exact reason.

 

[Mart68]

Like a jet pilot I once met who owned a WW1 bi-plane. Technology that was totally obsolete decades before he was born - which was precisely why he was fascinated by it.

 

[Newman]

They'd make more money if that disc was a CD - cheaper and easier to get printed and packaged.
So why a vinyl record? They have to sell more or take a loss on the exercise.

https://www.otherrecordlabels.com/vinyl “The sweet spot for indie artists and labels is 300 units. The cost of pressing 100 units may be cheaper, but it would likely require you to sell all 100 at ~$25 each, just to break even. Whereas, quantities of 200-300 trigger “price breaks” and make the overall cost per unit much less. Meaning you break even or make a profit easier! ”

I still say it's a status or ego thing. Get to hold your LP record in your hands, just like the great bands of the 1960s and 70s. Where's that feeling if the disc is small and silver? You're a proper musician with an LP.

Op cit: “Holding a record in your hand that you created — as an indie artist or as an indie record label — is one of the greatest feelings on earth.”

 

[FrankW]

They'd make more money if that disc was a CD - cheaper and easier to get printed and packaged.

“We sell significantly less CDs than records at shows,” says Emily Epstein, who drums in the band. “Sometimes we’ll only sell one or two CDs a night. Records are still always king in terms of what people want at our merch table.”

Emily the artist (via Matt) said no, just the opposite, since sales is what makes money.

I still say it's a status or ego thing. Get to hold your LP record in your hands, just like the great bands of the 1960s and 70s.

Indeed that's the era where most audiophiles-stereophiles-vinylphiles are stuck forever. "Great" in their opinions of course. Million dollar stereo systems to play 70s rock. Yaay.

Where's that feeling if the disc is small and silver?

Physically, in their hands? Some audiophile CD players are naked top load to resemble TT's so that can mimic the ritual. Maybe reintroduce Laserdiscs as the newest fad then?

You're a proper musician with an LP.

. Poor Beethoven....

 

[Mart68]

Indeed that's the era where most audiophiles-stereophiles-vinylphiles are stuck forever. "Great" in their opinions of course. Million dollar stereo systems to play 70s rock. Yaay.

I don't know about that. Okay so it is a scientific fact that Rock attained perfection in 1974 but even my tastes go a few decades beyond that, and audiophile pals (proper audiophiles with mains cables and that) who are older than me listen to all sorts of contemporary rubbish on vinyl.

But agree everything else. Records and streaming, that's the market now, CD people like me are a niche.

I bought the CD version of my friend's daughters album, she was shocked that someone who is 'into music' would not want the LP.

 

[MattHooper]

Exactly as you did. Glad you Googled and now know others are prepared for your audiophile logic methods.

I have been followed the skeptical literature and been involved, intensively, in philosophical and scientific-oriented debates with religious/creationists for almost four decades. I'm quite familiar with encountering the Gish Gallop, to say the least. Which is why I know when I'm avoiding it. In that post you label a "gish gallop" I explain what I'm arguing for, present lines of evidence, and finish reminding how they support the point I was arguing. Supplying direct quotes from artists to support my claim was particularly relevant as you were implying the evidence for what I was saying wasn't there!!! (it's just "hearsay.")

If you think that's a Gish Gallop, you simply do not understand that term.

Perhaps, refresh your memory:

Gish gallop - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can lazily throw out the term as an attempted insult; what you could not do, in good faith, is show what I wrote fits the description of the Gish Gallop (which is a dishonest debate tactic, NOT an attempt to provide several relevant examples of evidence for an argument).

No evasion since you agreed with me on both point. They like the $$ and you like the comfort of believing your affection for vinyl has the "support" of artists, however specious. Note the low-fi, my-fi artists, zero classical etc.

Nope, aware of Projection, Shifting goalposts and Appeal to Popularity, etc. You also provided an example initial post I responded to about CD being junk among specious arguments about physical media, which CD is. It just doesn't involve 19th century ritualism of playing less music in a given time frame of listening.
Btw, you Matt, despite what you may believe, are not the official spokesperson for "artists". Thus you have no clue why they don't release digital vinyl "sound", despite all the claims of "richer".

No complaints, amusement of your Gish, evasions, etc. The "analog nature" of a digital master vinyl record . Are you part of the MoFi lawsuit? I know a few distraught, embarrassed vinylphiles who are. Asking for a friend.

I would suggest you Google hearsay as well, in the context that I'm using it, given your belief you speak for artists intent, choices of releases, etc, etc. And yes, the explosion of sales of Crossley etc is definitely a fad. It just so happens to "support" vinylphiles belief that it's always been "the" format. Aha, we and now "artists" told you so!
I guess you'll just have to pretend I dont have a TT. More interested in listening to music than ritualism though.

Unfortunately I don't see this as serious engagement with what I wrote. It has more the character of trolling at this point.

 

[Galliardist]

https://www.otherrecordlabels.com/vinyl “The sweet spot for indie artists and labels is 300 units. The cost of pressing 100 units may be cheaper, but it would likely require you to sell all 100 at ~$25 each, just to break even. Whereas, quantities of 200-300 trigger “price breaks” and make the overall cost per unit much less. Meaning you break even or make a profit easier! ”

Op cit: “Holding a record in your hand that you created — as an indie artist or as an indie record label — is one of the greatest feelings on earth.”

Interesting. That cost used to be a lot higher… I should have checked before posting.

 

[Galliardist]

. Poor Beethoven....

Beethoven had money trouble at times, and suffered from piracy way more than other artists. All the major music publishers of his time pirated his scores and copyright laws were rather weak then.

His answer was clever… he sold exclusive rights to his latest symphony to every single one of them for a significant advance fee. It took some time for them to realise what he’d done…

Anyway, back to vinyl.

 

[FrankW]

Supplying direct quotes from artists to support my claim was particularly relevant as you were implying the evidence for what I was saying wasn't there!!! (it's just "hearsay.")

Perhaps, refresh your memory:
hear·say noun
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate.
LAW the report of another person's words by a witness
Matt, we get it. You like Edison era sound tech vinyl from digital masters. Some hipster "artists" like Jah'Mila and other low fi music types have said so along with admitting LP are what $ell to said hipsters and their Crossleys. I fully understand why you will evade at all costs answering why they don't release their digital media as "richer" vinyl rips...of digital masters. Glad you've found these crutches to support your preference if it helps.

If you think that's a Gish Gallop, you simply do not understand that term.

I understand Gish. Exhibit A for a failed avalanche attempt Gish Nice try.

Unfortunately I don't see this as serious engagement with what I wrote. It has more the character of trolling at this point.

And I understand why you need "support" for your Edison era 2ch sound preferences in 2023. It's ok, this type Fi isn't for 19th century stereophile low-fi, my-fi types. Never was or will be. It's ok, preferences vary.

 

[FrankW]

Where's that feeling if the disc is small and silver? You're a proper musician with an LP.
Beethoven had money trouble at times, and suffered from piracy way more than other artists. Anyway, back to vinyl.

Yeah and too bad Beethoven wasn't a proper musician until Edison era. Btw, classical on LP is a complete joke compared to digital, except for maybe Jah'Mila Fi types.

 

[Galliardist]

Yeah and too bad Beethoven wasn't a proper musician until Edison era. Btw, classical on LP is a complete joke compared to digital, except for maybe Jah'Mila Fi types.

Look, you do realise that my "proper musician" comment was meant to be a sarcastic comment about the modern attitude to vinyl, surely?
And editing what I wrote way out of context isn't nice.

Anyway, if we are playing the nitpicking game, the first long playing record was released in June 1943, Edison died in 1931. So the first LP was 17 years after the "Edison era".

As for classical on LP being a "complete joke compared to digital", while digital recording and playback is a clear improvement, your comment goes way too far. You should also care to remember that the high fidelity industry as we know it came into being expressly for the purpose of bringing classical music into the home on LP records. The LP probably touched more hearts than any other invention of that era, and was the medium that gave so many, so much of the greatest art of our lifetimes. And just because digital playback is better... the LP still works and works remarkably well.

I know it's the thing to diss vinyl here, and I've had a couple of goes myself. But complete joke? It never was.

 

[FrankW]

Look, you do realise that my "proper musician" comment was meant to be a sarcastic comment about the modern attitude to vinyl, surely?

Yes and surely you caught my extension of that sarcasm?

Anyway, if we are playing the nitpicking game, the first long playing record was released in June 1943, Edison died in 1931. So the first LP was 17 years after the "Edison era".

My quote about Edison era didn't include "LP". That was in the following "Btw". This is indeed the era where the needle draggers are stuck. Still 2ch too.

Phonograph record - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for classical on LP being a "complete joke compared to digital", while digital recording and playback is a clear improvement, your comment goes way too far.

No. It only means like Matt, you have no idea why I keep referencing that Immersion article. That system builds upon another that some hard core stereophiles experienced, that would make vinyl systems sound like a complete joke. Btw, I've heard countless mega $$ vinyl systems. I regularly attend live classical. They are a complete 2ch joke with classical.
Except maybe for the My-Fi crowd. YMMV

 

[levimax]

Yeah and too bad Beethoven wasn't a proper musician until Edison era. Btw, classical on LP is a complete joke compared to digital, except for maybe Jah'Mila Fi types.

I think I understand your points which appear to be:

1. Digital measures and sounds better than vinyl and digital MC immersive technology is better than stereo.
2. The vinyl resurgence is a fad and has no place in the modern Hi-Fi world.

I don't think #1 is very controversial on this forum but #2 can rub people the wrong way as it is contradicted by what objective data exists. For what ever reason many humans have a preference for possessing physical things. In the case of an LP you get an interesting historical artifact, some nice artwork, and it can be played and produces Hi-Fi music with a historical context (even if it is not SOTA). Sales have been rising steadily for coming up on 2 decades now and most everyone seems happy about it (collectors, fans, musicians) except apparently some experts frustrated that not everyone sees things their way i.e. should be streaming Atmos.

My questions for you are:

Do you think the world would be a better place if everyone got rid of their LP's and TT's?

What exactly is the point of denigrating someone else's avocation choices?

 

[Guralex]

Being a moderate vinyl enjoyer, will leave 3 comments here:

1. Mastering may differ sometimes. I really like some old hip-hop music. And I was not able to find any early Eminem albums that sound better in digital. Dunno why, but the quality is either crap in a term of details and dynamics, or....it's a vinyl rip (which is also a pretty random thing).
There ARE some albums, especially the old ones, that are just mastered better on vinyl.

2. Natural equalization. Each of components in a vinyl loop sounds a bit different and it's not an esoteric "sound of hi-end cables", but some pretty audiable things. For myself I've understood that some of my beloved albums sound just A WAY BETTER on my vinyl setup in terms of equalization and accents. Is it possible to mimic this balance with digital EQ? -Yes. Will it take some time? -Yes. Will the result be predictable? -I don't know).

3. Physically historical sound. This is mostly a joke in the terms of discussion above, however a true story. I've bought an album "Perfect Circle - Eat the elephant", which I concider just beautiful. And there was a section of a track "Disillusioned" with very tragic, personal and chilling a cappella fragment. One day I came home sad and drunk, sat in front of the player and listened to this fragment over and over again, constantly moving the needle to its beginning every 30 seconds, until at one moment the tonearm slipped from my finger and the needle broke off, scratching the record in that place .
Several years have passed, but now, when I put this record on and hear a slight crunch in that place, strong nostalgia and a storm of emotions come over me.

Can your FLAC do that?))

p.s. sorry for posting this in AudioScienceReview forum)))

 

[Galliardist]

Yes and surely you caught my extension of that sarcasm?

But it wasn't an extension at all. It was a complete non-sequiteur. So was the Edison reference when we were discussing LP. You could try making sense, you know.

No. It only means like Matt, you have no idea why I keep referencing that Immersion article. That system builds upon another that some hard core stereophiles experienced, that would make vinyl systems sound like a complete joke. Btw, I've heard countless mega $$ vinyl systems. I regularly attend live classical. They are a complete 2ch joke with classical.
Except maybe for the My-Fi crowd. YMMV

I do understand. A major work drawn on here demonstrates that people prefer immersive surround to stereo in controlled tests. I get it enough that I've recommended that people who ask about new stereo systems here should make sure they listen to a surround system, at least, before jumping straight to stereo. I'm ambivalent about some of the surround mixes I've been subjected to, but in general I've been there and I've heard what you are on about.

As for my preference, I'm stuck with two channel. If somebody nice was to buy us a larger place to live, where I could fit in both a proper surround system and my wife's large book collection - which is far more important to us - I would go down that road. It's not going to happen anytime soon. Though I guess you have a Kindle and refer to people with actual books as paper-draggers or something?

I wonder what you think of mono? Many great performances were recorded back in that Edison era, and I have an interest in things like performance practice.

 

[FrankW]

1. Digital measures and sounds better than vinyl and digital MC immersive technology is better than stereo.

Yep, though specifically classical. Elvis? Jah'Mila? Who knows. What does "Fidelity" there sound like inside audiophile minds?

2. The vinyl resurgence is a fad

Yep.

and has no place in the modern Hi-Fi world.

Your strawman missed badly there and obviously didn't read/comprehend my writing. Google "preference", what I actually wrote.

Do you think the world would be a better place if everyone got rid of their LP's and TT's?

No I'm keeping mine. Reading helps.

What exactly is the point of denigrating someone else's avocation choices?

I found the highly specious arguments that "artists" prefer vinyl used as a crutch for ones own preference to be highly amusing, in case you missed it.
No problem with My-Fi preferences at all, just silly props.