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V-Moda M200 Headphone Review

Rate this headphone:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 126 85.1%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 15 10.1%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 3 2.0%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 4 2.7%

  • Total voters
    148

kencreten

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I attacked your ideas, maybe you are too attached to them if you take it personally. Either way I said all there is to say and this is OT...

EDIT: If you were skilled att reading between the lines, you would extract the message that it's hard to regulate the regulators, and slippery slopes are not worth going down in hindsight, so consider what your ideas are leading you toward. Assuming the ideas you subscribe to allow you that luxury.
These statements are not in anyway meant faceciously. Are these "talking about my ideas?"

"I'm hoping the weight of the world isn't crushing you."
"maybe you are too attached to them if you take it personally."

"If you were skilled at reading between the lines, you would extract the message that it's hard to regulate the regulators, and slippery slopes are not worth going down in hindsight, so consider what your ideas are leading you toward. Assuming the ideas you subscribe to allow you that luxury."


These are not "attacking my ideas." The first statement is clearly meant as a cut to me personally. The next statement is intended to show weakness in my thinking. Not so bad. I do have weakness in my thinking. The next statement assumes I am not skilled at reading between the lines. That's a direct cut.

These are not bad things, but they are an attack. They are not addressing my ideas, they are addressing me. If you think I'm a dumbass and you feel that way, that's perfectly OK. Think whatever you wish. I'm simply requesting that you do attack my ideas, and not my person.

I notice you didn't respond to my thoughts on "Social Darwinism."
 

kencreten

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Heightened regulations would probably be an effective way to wipe out smaller operations like DCA and Focal. I'm picturing applications fees, certifications, processing times. But no doubt would create some cozy government jobs.
That's a really good point.
 

kencreten

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Moral of the story: The government decides, you won't.

Wow, you guys gave it a lot of thoughts...
Seriously, The Idea that a relatively small manufacturer would be motivated by a malicious desire to fool people is a bit surreal... Sorry, but this sounds like paranoia to me, Like the big bad industry is out to get me and they are criminals... Come on. Who in this right mind will go and say hey, let's do a product with a frequency response that is generally disliked so we will make money since people are stupid? Right....

I will give you some ideas that are more likely:

-Incompetence.
-Some engineers actually like how this sound.
-trying to appeal to a niche that they studied and that don't like Harman.
-Ran out of money in dev and felt it was ok enough
-Actual bad decision to chose a driver from Roland and this is actually their best effort of what they could do with it.
-Trying to enlarge their audience by offering a variety of sound signatures.

That last one is quite common. Peoples have different tastes that's a fact, depending on parts of the world, depending of cultures, depending of preffered music styles All headphone manufactures have more than one sonic signature in their products, You chose as a customer what works for you. This whole conspiracy stuff really it gets old....
I do not believe in "conspiracies" in general. For me a conspiracy is about law. I do not trust government any more than I trust business in general. I think what you are saying here makes a lot of sense. I have a narrow view of what success means in audio. I am also not running an audio business. If I was running an audio company, I'd try to do our best within our limits to make good products. If someone came to me and said, "well, we have these people that like more bass and I think it would be a money maker for us to make those kinds of headphones," I wouldn't have a problem with that. As I sit here I would like the marketing to say, "these headphones come with such and such more low end. For people who like bass."

I think your words here are very wise though. I do get mad at people in audio that... say vinyl is better than 16 bit/44.1khz digital. But it's kind of a "sports mad." "How dare they say that about our measurement team!" Much ado about not a lot.
 

Cars-N-Cans

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I would love for that to be the case. Unfortunately there's people at all ends of the equation, and they are all correct. All we need to do is ask them. It's a mass of ideas all pulling against each other. I can't possibly correctly gauge whether one or another regulation is required. But... someone coming after me because... "I'm a regulation hawk." I don't really even care about that stuff.
We actually can gauge whether regulations are required, by examining them, which is why transparency is needed. We also have to stay clear of the notion that the government must regulate every aspect of life for it to be fair. In a free society we also have to acknowledge that companies have certain rights as well as consumers having free will. This is why democratic and legal processes exist in the first place, and allowing the process to also be open to the populous at large. If there is public outcry over some practice, then it can be examined to see if regulations are required. Sometimes consumer opinion alone will fix things, as we saw with Toole's research greatly improving speaker performance. Once there are exemplars to show how performance should be, then opinions change and companies that produce poor audio gear start losing general market share. That is the beauty of the free market. This can also be said for the Ford Pinto. While I think Ford was unfairly targeted as they were no worse than other auto manufacturers of the time in taking short-cuts, pressure from public outcry as well as the small Asian imports the Pinto was competing against putting pressure on the domestic auto industry led to wide-sweeping changes that improved both safety and emissions. As much as I despise diesel emissions regulations, living near a city I can say the air was so dirty some days it was literally brown, and everything in my house smelled of diesel fumes, and the walls dark with soot. Now there is hardly a trace it was ever an issue, with the air quality improving by many orders of magnitude.

As with all things, balance is needed as the continued regulations will ultimately place undue economic strain on an already faltering economy. We see this with things like onerous fuel economy regulations and prematurely forcing the market to all electric vehicles despite having no viable alternatives beyond fossil fuels and electric grids across the western world that cannot take having the demand on it doubled. And as for frivolous regulations, I think the move towards banning of gas stoves and other such appliances is a good example. Given their relatively small energy footprint is they neither are substantial generators of greenhouse gasses nor are necessarily any more unsafe than other forms of heating and cooking. Further, there is still no viable way to power all these new electric devices, and moving to entirely electric heating will essentially be running refrigeration based HVAC throughout the year, which may be a disaster in very cold areas when the temperature plummets, leading to power outages due to increased demand. Moreover, pointing solar calculators at the sky and putting electric pinwheels out in the ocean does not constitute a viable alternative to power civilization. Further, they are creating environmental disasters of their own due to their poor recyclability and turning undeveloped areas into various solar and wind harvesting operations, impacting wildlife. We do eventually need a solution to avoid any further warming, but this should be focusing on actual solutions like cleaner forms of nuclear power or obtaining viable fusion energy. If the governments really cared as much as they did about developing nuclear weapons back during the cold war, we would see these projects being front-page news pretty much 365 days a year. But we don't, and that says something. Well, it says many things, but since this is an audio form and this is already wildly off-topic I will eschew going further.

But at any rate, yes this is doable, by having regulations be open to public examination and honest debate so we can collectively decide on what regulations are in place and how they will be enforced.
 

kencreten

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Agreed. Don't know if you gave @kencreten six more reasons to invoke state regulation of the industry, though.
I'm starting to think it might not be possible for you to respond to someone who disagrees with you, without attacking them? You had to take your ideas about me, not discussed, to the greater public even.
 

markanini

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I'm starting to think it might not be possible for you to respond to someone who disagrees with you, without attacking them? You had to take your ideas about me, not discussed, to the greater public even.
Is there any amount to assurance I can give to you that everything I've said was intendent to be taken as a light hearted jab at your ideas? My experience discussing with people advocating for government overreach is fixation with being personally attacked no matter what has been said and how it was said. Our exchange is a perfectly typical example because you keep going back to this even efter conceding to at least few of my points, possibly because you've been conditioned to think people with my viewpoint are bad people, and maybe overinterpreting my tone is some kind of gotcha moment for you.

At the same time part of my family history takes place in the former Soviet block. They had assets and businesses, which took generations to build, confiscated by the government. As bad as that was, far from the worst outcome. The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn tells of real events more gruesome and chilling than you could imagine. Think about where your moralistic, holier than thou, pandering fits in all of this.
 

kencreten

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We actually can gauge whether regulations are required, by examining them, which is why transparency is needed. We also have to stay clear of the notion that the government must regulate every aspect of life for it to be fair. In a free society we also have to acknowledge that companies have certain rights as well as consumers having free will. This is why democratic and legal processes exist in the first place, and allowing the process to also be open to the populous at large. If there is public outcry over some practice, then it can be examined to see if regulations are required. Sometimes consumer opinion alone will fix things, as we saw with Toole's research greatly improving speaker performance. Once there are exemplars to show how performance should be, then opinions change and companies that produce poor audio gear start losing general market share. That is the beauty of the free market. This can also be said for the Ford Pinto. While I think Ford was unfairly targeted as they were no worse than other auto manufacturers of the time in taking short-cuts, pressure from public outcry as well as the small Asian imports the Pinto was competing against putting pressure on the domestic auto industry led to wide-sweeping changes that improved both safety and emissions. As much as I despise diesel emissions regulations, living near a city I can say the air was so dirty some days it was literally brown, and everything in my house smelled of diesel fumes, and the walls dark with soot. Now there is hardly a trace it was ever an issue, with the air quality improving by many orders of magnitude.

As with all things, balance is needed as the continued regulations will ultimately place undue economic strain on an already faltering economy. We see this with things like onerous fuel economy regulations and prematurely forcing the market to all electric vehicles despite having no viable alternatives beyond fossil fuels and electric grids across the western world that cannot take having the demand on it doubled. And as for frivolous regulations, I think the move towards banning of gas stoves and other such appliances is a good example. Given their relatively small energy footprint is they neither are substantial generators of greenhouse gasses nor are necessarily any more unsafe than other forms of heating and cooking. Further, there is still no viable way to power all these new electric devices, and moving to entirely electric heating will essentially be running refrigeration based HVAC throughout the year, which may be a disaster in very cold areas when the temperature plummets, leading to power outages due to increased demand. Moreover, pointing solar calculators at the sky and putting electric pinwheels out in the ocean does not constitute a viable alternative to power civilization. Further, they are creating environmental disasters of their own due to their poor recyclability and turning undeveloped areas into various solar and wind harvesting operations, impacting wildlife. We do eventually need a solution to avoid any further warming, but this should be focusing on actual solutions like cleaner forms of nuclear power or obtaining viable fusion energy. If the governments really cared as much as they did about developing nuclear weapons back during the cold war, we would see these projects being front-page news pretty much 365 days a year. But we don't, and that says something. Well, it says many things, but since this is an audio form and this is already wildly off-topic I will eschew going further.

But at any rate, yes this is doable, by having regulations be open to public examination and honest debate so we can collectively decide on what regulations are in place and how they will be enforced.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. We've gotten off topic as you say, but this is interesting information. There are many bad and good ideas. I've sort of given up on general news as it's become focused almost entirely on sensationalism, except for some sites. Practicality and sensible solutions to problems that affect all of us, as you've listed seem hard to come by. We need careful examination of various solutions as we all move forward, but it seems... at first glance that we're servicing ourselves with tantalizing news items and yelling at each other about it. I've almost given up on the whole mess. My prognostications regarding audio come from a personal serious hobby viewpoint for me. Audio might be the only thing in life I'm a bit religious about. Partly I focus on it, because I can somewhat understand it, and it's not very important. If I stand up and say, "I stand for good audio measurements!", almost no one cares, which is fine.

Thanks again for the considerate and interesting information.
 

markanini

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And that's what it takes with business people - they must be forced to do the right thing (see Ford Pinto).
Before anyone attempts to put it on me for turning the thread political. Either way this will be my final contribution to OT in this thread. Long live small players like Focal, Dan Clark Audio, Austrian Audio, Kali Audio, Audeze, Meze, and also larger brands that offer value at different price points like Koss.
 
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kencreten

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Once under my radar, I happened to land on AudioScienceReview.

Then I halted everything related to upgrading my music system and just went reading, and waiting.

Isn't it a bit discouraging to meet so many bad products ?

Even those aiming at professional people gives a lot to be desired.
I wish that all companies would make great products audio wise, but you'll notice on the testing listings, there are many fantastic products at reasonable prices, performance wise.
 

IAtaman

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I wish that all companies would make great products audio wise, but you'll notice on the testing listings, there are many fantastic products at reasonable prices, performance wise.

People who bought these products did not care about objective audio performance. Funny thing is, it's not just the regular people who didn't (don't?) care, even audiophiles did not care about objective performance, partly beucase there was very little information available about it. As long as 1. products were expensive and looked expensive and 2. there was a guy who had some authorithy about " audio quality" and he said they sounded great it was great. So manufacturers, quite rightly so, did not care much about it as consumers did not care about it, and those who prioritized audio quality over look and feel probably went bankrupt.
 
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kencreten

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People who bought these products did not care about objective audio performance. Funny thing is, it's not just the regular people who didn't (don't?) care, even audiophiles did not care about objective performance, partly beucase there was very little information available about it. As long as 1. products were expensive and looked expensive and 2. there was a guy who had some authorithy about " audio quality" and he said they sounded great it was great. So manufacturers, quite rightly so, did not care much about it as consumers did not care about it, and those who prioritized audio quality over look and feel probably went bankrupt.
Some companies over time, like JBL over time have sort of succeeded at both end of things. My Dad is a retired HVAC/electrical professional engineer who owned a small engineering firm in the Northwest. He told me that qualifying for being "professional engineer" meant that he was legally responsible for his designs. He had a JBL catalog where he might specify speakers for a church or something. Those various JBL items in that catalog were very well documented. If he specified JBL speakers or equipment, and they didn't perform as specified, he was on the hook, and I imagine by proxy, JBL would have been on the hook. That kind of ruined me for marketing, lacking specs, that say, "sounds real good! Audio authorities love it's cedar overtones!" I learned about speakers from that catalog, only to discover later in my young life that "selling speakers," was often tantamount to consciously fooling people. Something I am... not OK with. You can get into legal problems building something, but you can rip off individuals almost whenever you want.
 
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kencreten

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Some companies over time, like JBL over time have sort of succeeded at both end of things.
t
Some companies over time, like JBL over time have sort of succeeded at both end of things. My Dad is a retired HVAC/electrical professional engineer who owned a small engineering firm in the Northwest. He told me that qualifying for being "professional engineer" meant that he was legally responsible for his designs. He had a JBL catalog where he might specify speakers for a church or something. Those various JBL items in that catalog were very well documented. If he specified JBL speakers or equipment, and they didn't perform as specified, he was on the hook, and I imagine by proxy, JBL would have been on the hook. That kind of ruined me for marketing, lacking specs, that say, "sounds real good! Audio authorities love it's cedar overtones!" I learned about speakers from that catalog, only to discover later in my young life that "selling speakers," was often tantamount to consciously fooling people. Something I am... not OK with. You can get into legal problems building something, but you can rip off individuals almost whenever you want. People who have buildings built, to specifications are protected by law (most times), but we throw the often ignorant individual out on the rip-off ocean, and "let the buyer beware." I'm just talking about audio gear, but even though no one is dying, it's another case of toss those who can't defend themselves over the side.
 

IAtaman

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I learned about speakers from that catalog, only to discover later in my young life that "selling speakers," was often tantamount to consciously fooling people. Something I am... not OK with. You can get into legal problems building something, but you can rip off individuals almost whenever you want.
I am not sure if I'd call it fooling people. Even now, despite having better tools for measuring a number of parameters we believe are relevant to sound quality, we can not agree on what sounds good. I think the key point for me is that people did not buy audio products for what we today consider to be important to sound quality, and that is fine. Even for buildings, there are regulations for safety and security but no one can tell you which architecture is good which is bad, and I would not blame real estate agents for telling to their clients that the architecture of the house they are selling is great.
 

usern

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People who bought these products did not care about objective audio performance.
I bought M100 and I care about objective performance. I like M100. They are very low distortion and go very loud with very little amplification.
Funny thing is, it's not just the regular people who didn't (don't?) care, even audiophiles did not care about objective performance, partly beucase there was very little information available about it.
Yeah, there was not much other information than that M100 is good bass headphone. But since thomann had good return policy I went for them. I was impressed how loud and clean they sounded straight from motherboard audio. Louder than M50x and DT770 that I also had.

In absence of measurements, loudness is a robust way to assess performance so perhaps being extremely efficient and low distortion is part of the reason V-Moda was successful.
 
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F1308

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I wish that all companies would make great products audio wise, but you'll notice on the testing listings, there are many fantastic products at reasonable prices, performance wise.
For sure.
I own many of them.
But one is to be so careful...!!!!
 
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