Upgrade path recommendation

[topdownsound]

My vinyl system is a Technics TT, going to an Art DJ Pre II preamp, to a Denon AVR-X3800H receiver. Subwoofer is a brand new Klipsch RP-1400SW, speakers are vintage HPM-1100s.

I'm finding that my albums sound a little less punchy than listening to the same songs streaming. Part of it is, I'm sure, that I'm listening to a remastered version on the songs I've chosen when streaming and comparing these to my albums is not really fair. But I'd like to get more punch from my albums generally. I'm an old headbanger and I like my bass so that 14 inch sub ought to be thrilling and while it rocks the room streaming, it just isn't making it playing vinyl.

So if I want to get better, punchier sound for my records, where should I be looking to upgrade? The TT, the Denon, the sub are all new, so they aren't up for swapping out. I love my speakers. I guess I'm maybe looking at a different pre-amp or maybe an separate amplifier, or both? Funds are not unlimited, as you can see by my choices so far. Maybe a two-channel amp for the HPMs? My ears are old and have been through lots of concerts and gunfire in a previous job so instead of 24k golden ears, I'm working on 9k.

Thanks!!

 

[staticV3]

Neither a new preamp, nor a separate amplifier for your HPMs will make your sub rock the room playing vinyl like it does when streaming.

I'm sorry to say, but the most effective way to fix that discrepancy between vinyl and streaming might be replacing the ART with a Waxwing.

It has the tools to both analyze and fix said discrepancy.

If your Denon supports input specific EQ parameters, then you could also use that in conjunction with a UMIK-1 to equalize the difference.

 

[LTig]

Use tone controls

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi, what cartridge / stylus do you have? It's possible that a change there might help

Otherwise, as @staticV3 suggested, see if you can use the Denon's EQ to boost your vinyl signal.

The alternative is to accept that, in your system, vinyl is more laid-back: rock out digitally and chill to vinyl?

 

[topdownsound]

Actually, not a bad suggestion. Where I am disappointed is when playing rock from the 1970s. My jazz and classical albums are just fine. And only some rock is disappointing. Rumours was thinner than I'd like, but Born to Run was fine and so was Madman Across The Water, so it is hit or miss.

But I just had a look at that Waxwing! WOW!!! What a COOL device!! I have a significant investment in album-based stuff. Not a gazillion, but about 150 records. About 2/3 are rock. I read that Waxwing manual and it would seem to tick all the boxes in terms of shaping the sound. Never heard of that sort of device before.

 

[LTig]

Actually, not a bad suggestion. Where I am disappointed is when playing rock from the 1970s. My jazz and classical albums are just fine. And only some rock is disappointing. Rumours was thinner than I'd like, but Born to Run was fine and so was Madman Across The Water, so it is hit or miss.

It could be the pressing. American records sometimes had more bass and sounded more dynamic than German pressings. I think German pressings were equalized deliberately this way, maybe because average rooms and hence speakers were smaller and couldn't handle real bass.

 

[kemmler3D]

Some classic rock recordings just don't have low bass...

Agree that in this case a new phono pre could help, adding EQ capability one way or the other is never a bad idea.

 

[DVDdoug]

EQ or tone controls are probably the answer. Or I assume your sub has a separate level adjustment so you can turn it up? I have a sub-bass synthesizer that adds a lower octave of bass, but it's no longer in production.

And since you're happy with vinyl playback, you've identified the problem as the source or the signal so there's nothing wrong with your amplifier or speakers.

I guess I'm maybe looking at a different pre-amp or maybe an separate amplifier, or both?

Most modern electronics has flat frequency response (ignoring EQ or tone controls).

I'm sure, that I'm listening to a remastered version on the songs I've chosen when streaming and comparing these to my albums is not really fair.

That's likely. Or, a lot of older records had rolled-off highs and that might make the bass sound stronger. Digital actually has the capability of going down to DC (zero Hz). I read about the Led Zepplin recordings being remastered and they restored the bass that filtered-out in the original vinyl days.

Most records don't go below about 40Hz because strong low-bass is hard for the cartridge/stylus to track. Most music doesn't have that much deep bass anyway. The lowest note on a standard bass guitar is about 40Hz, and most pro subwoofers used live and in clubs only go down to around that range. That's low enough for bass you can feel in your body. (Home subwoofers often go lower but they usually aren't capable of filling a large space with bass.)

 

[thewas]

It could be the pressing. American records sometimes had more bass and sounded more dynamic than German pressings. I think German pressings were equalized deliberately this way, maybe because average rooms and hence speakers were smaller and couldn't handle real bass.

Also US homes usually have bigger rooms and not as many concrete walls which was the reason loudspeakers for that market were tuned for louder bass than for example European models or versions. The other extreme were typical smaller Japanese rooms were annoying the neighbours was even more a no go so such had often a quite bass shy tuning.

 

[antcollinet]

My vinyl system is a Technics TT, going to an Art DJ Pre II preamp, to a Denon AVR-X3800H receiver. Subwoofer is a brand new Klipsch RP-1400SW, speakers are vintage HPM-1100s.

I'm finding that my albums sound a little less punchy than listening to the same songs streaming. Part of it is, I'm sure, that I'm listening to a remastered version on the songs I've chosen when streaming and comparing these to my albums is not really fair. But I'd like to get more punch from my albums generally. I'm an old headbanger and I like my bass so that 14 inch sub ought to be thrilling and while it rocks the room streaming, it just isn't making it playing vinyl.

So if I want to get better, punchier sound for my records, where should I be looking to upgrade? The TT, the Denon, the sub are all new, so they aren't up for swapping out. I love my speakers. I guess I'm maybe looking at a different pre-amp or maybe an separate amplifier, or both? Funds are not unlimited, as you can see by my choices so far. Maybe a two-channel amp for the HPMs? My ears are old and have been through lots of concerts and gunfire in a previous job so instead of 24k golden ears, I'm working on 9k.

Thanks!!

Use Audessey Evo one nexus to optimise the room correction. Should improve "punch" accross the board.

 

[LTig]

The other extreme were typical smaller Japanese rooms were annoying the neighbours was even more a no go so such had often a quite bass shy tuning.

Yep, I have a Japanese pressing of Led Zeppelins Physical Graffiti, and while it sounds clear and open it's also very bass shy.

 

[Chrispy]

Probably at root a level mismatch between your vinyl and streaming sources? How are you comparing particularly? Take any measurements to see if they can capture where things are changing? What cartridge are you using?

 

[ExPerfectionist]

Probably at root a level mismatch between your vinyl and streaming sources? How are you comparing particularly? Take any measurements to see if they can capture where things are changing? What cartridge are you using?

Yes it's important to compare at the same volume level. The vinyl volume will usually be lower than the streaming or CD volume.

 

[topdownsound]

The volume level is a distinct possibility. When I switch from vinyl to the streamer in the AVR, for TuneIn or Spotify, it is MUCH louder. I have to turn the master volume down to around -38 for regular listening. Records I commonly listen to at around -15 or -10. Listening to Spotify at -10 would be painful.

 

[topdownsound]

I have to learn a lot about OCA A1 apparently. Oh, well. YouTube, here we come!! Thanks!!!!

 

[ExPerfectionist]

There's a setting in Inputs to change "Source Leve" up or down, so there's less of a jump when switching inputs.

Your turntable phono preamp might need a higher level voltage/output? I have a 3700h, and I listen at -40~-30 for CDs and streaming music, -20~ give or take for Netflix/TV, and -30 ~ -25 for normal records (maybe a bit higher for older jazz records).

 

[topdownsound]

I found the "source level" and can go up to +6 dB. But doesn't that boost all sources? Including the Roku internal streaming as well as the TT?

edit: found the source level control in the manual. I understand now. RTFM!!!!

 

[topdownsound]

The source level control did it for me. +3dB for the phono and things sound fine. I dinked around with tone controls but it was kind of like "with six you get eggroll" - other things had to be sacrificed that I wanted, so in the end, the source level control allowed me to have Dynamic EQ and higher input sound level and that allowed the music to sound fine.

I'm saving up for that Waxwing, though! That is such a cool thing to shape the music any way I want.