Turntables?

[mhardy6647]

I had the earlier iteration of your Technics 'table, the SL D2. Very competent deck, sturdy. The SL D2 holds speed well. Note, however, that the speed control should be washed out with de-oxit periodically so the deck's speed doesn't wander. Worked well with a Shure 97e, worked better with a Shure M44-7. Mine had a damaged cover, got it at a thrift store for $50. SL Q2 has quartz control, the SL D2 has servo control. There's a fairly clean SL Q2 on fleabay for $200 + shipping right now.

View attachment 44154

Indeed I learned the issue with the wavering speed pots on an SL-B2, in fact. The B2 is the belt drive, DC FG (I think) morph; but it, too, has both the fine speed adjustment (user-accessible) and the internal, coarser (if memory serves) speed adjustment pots. The latter are the ones that really need attention after -- oh -- a few decades

Two other things (and my apologies to the OP for the hijack/digression!)

1) Mrs. H had, at various times in her pre-Mrs-H days (in grad school), three, count 'em three SL-D2s! This was a reflection of the rather high crime area in which she (and a bunch of other grad students from JHU) lived at the time. She actually got two of 'em back when all was said and done (a long story in and of itself). I gave the last one she/we had away to a local hifi guru a few years back (for a friend of his looking for a starter tt). The SL-D2 is a bit plasticky, but it is a perfectly competent tt for a medium-compliance cartridge (which, of course, most are nowadays).

2) The SL-Q2 is 'quartz-locked' (PLL) and, as such, does not have user adjustable pitch (thus rendering its built in strobe as little more than eye candy). I do not know if it has internal speed adjustments or not, though -- now that you mention it.

As one (last!) off-topic aside: I am actually using the SL-Q2, with some old as-found ADC cartridge* even now to "rip" (as the cool kids say nowadays ) ever more of our much-enjoyed (and almost embarrassingly large) holiday music collection to listen to in our cars (e.g.) in the digital domain.

(note that no expenses spared phono preamp, too!)
__________________
* The ADC cart, if memory serves, came to us on a cheap-ish Sony DD that I bought for our son years back via eBAY, and which was destroyed (the tt, that is) as a consequence of inept packaging (per my earlier comments...)! The cartridge was/is fine, tho'.

 

[pglee]

Used Technics are great. I was able to get a home version of the 1200 that had auto shutoff. I think this is a really nice feature that you don't find on many audiophile tables. The advantage of these tables are their durability and speed consistency. However, since it is a direct drive table, supposedly they have more rumble due to coupling with the motor, but honestly I care more about the fun of playing vinyl and hearing old records mastered properly on vinyl. You can find some real gems where the vocals sound better on vinyl simply because the mastering is better. Also make sure to get your table properly setup with a basic tracking force gauge.

 

[The Equalizer]

2) Cogging is something someone somewhere made up to disparage direct drive. I don't even know what it is, sonically. The newer Technics models are supposed to offer smoother rotation, but I've never heard anything that I could attribute to whatever cogging is supposed to sound like. And I've never read anything definitive from anyone who has. In the world of record playing, with all its possible and actual sonic faults, cogging is probably the last thing anyone needs to be worried about.

I don't know if I've ever heard it. I've never tested for it or been aware of it specifically. It may be minor in the scheme of things, but it does appear to exist. This is what Scott Dorsey wrote about it on rec.audio.pro:

"The direct drive systems have big multipole motors, and as the disc
rotates, the motor is going over one pole after another. And as this
happens, the torque changes depending on the position of the platter.
This results in an audible flutter effect called 'cogging' and it's
very distinguishable from other kinds of flutter because there is one
flutter frequency dominant and few sidebands."

"Play something with a very long, drawn out note. The Shure test record
1 KHz test tone is going to be the most obvious example, but the whole
notes on a Thelonius Monk piano solo will do also. Listen for a warble.
The warble frequency will be pretty high, so it will be more obvious at
33 rpm. You probably won't be able to hear it at all at 78 rpm. And it
won't be phenomenally obvious at first. But once you hear it, you'll be
hard-pressed not to notice it afterward."

 

[bigx5murf]

Out of those, I only have experience with the Pro-ject carbon, and I'd avoid those at all costs. A friend brought me one to replace tonearm wires, because he broke them trying to swap carts. If you just look at it, it's hard to imagine people not breaking them when swapping carts. After I swapped the wires, I kept trying to track down a hum, thinking I messed up somewhere. Did a quick search, and seems like a lot of people have the same issue with TTs out of the box. My friend confirmed his always had the hum as well. I hooked up a flood damaged Technics SL-1500mk1 for him, that just just put in new RCA cables, and recapped. He was shocked by how silent the space in between tracks was in comparison. He ended up buying that flood damaged Technics for what I had in it, and selling the pro-ject.

 

[creativepart]

Hum can come from many sources with a TT. But generally it's not some unsolvable problem. The most common hum is due to unshielded wires/cables. The voltages coming from the cartridge are tiny and they need to be amplified before going to your pre-amp. Along the way from the tonearm to the pre-amp cables need to be carefully shielded and many times grounded. Something as simple as using a different cable or even routing it differently around other electrical sources is necessary. But 99 times out of a hundred it is easily solvable.

 

[garbulky]

Any feedback from OP?

 

[bigx5murf]

Hum can come from many sources with a TT. But generally it's not some unsolvable problem. The most common hum is due to unshielded wires/cables. The voltages coming from the cartridge are tiny and they need to be amplified before going to your pre-amp. Along the way from the tonearm to the pre-amp cables need to be carefully shielded and many times grounded. Something as simple as using a different cable or even routing it differently around other electrical sources is necessary. But 99 times out of a hundred it is easily solvable.

Do a search for pro-ject hum, common consensus was its actually feedback from the motor.

 

[creativepart]

Do a search for pro-ject hum, common consensus was its actually feedback from the motor.

OK, at your urging I did. I did see one Pro-Ject TT, the Carbon where folks complained about about motor noise. In the same threads I saw plenty of folks with other Pro-Ject TTs that didn't have the issue. I've never owned that brand, but from what I read it doesn't give the impression that it's a consistent issue on all of their TT line.

 

[SIY]

And yes, the EPC-P205MK3/MK4s are fantastic cartridges although I fear the internal rubber suspension on most old cartridges are drying out and hindering performance...

They were superb, but even the NOS styli have dead suspensions. I used a Mk3 for several years before upgrading to the EPC100C Mk4, but those have the same issue- the few remaining styli collapse in just a few hours.

 

[Robin L]

I don't know if I've ever heard it. I've never tested for it or been aware of it specifically. It may be minor in the scheme of things, but it does appear to exist. This is what Scott Dorsey wrote about it on rec.audio.pro:

"The direct drive systems have big multipole motors, and as the disc
rotates, the motor is going over one pole after another. And as this
happens, the torque changes depending on the position of the platter.
This results in an audible flutter effect called 'cogging' and it's
very distinguishable from other kinds of flutter because there is one
flutter frequency dominant and few sidebands."

"Play something with a very long, drawn out note. The Shure test record
1 KHz test tone is going to be the most obvious example, but the whole
notes on a Thelonius Monk piano solo will do also. Listen for a warble.
The warble frequency will be pretty high, so it will be more obvious at
33 rpm. You probably won't be able to hear it at all at 78 rpm. And it
won't be phenomenally obvious at first. But once you hear it, you'll be
hard-pressed not to notice it afterward."

I't kinda hard to isolate one kinda LP wobble from another, seeing as they come in various sorts of clusters. Bog-standard LPs come with audible eccentricities, once you realize that's what you're hearing you'll never unhear it. But I haven't hear cogging so far, I suspect it's usually swamped by the standard eccentricities of LPs in general.

 

[bigx5murf]

OK, at your urging I did. I did see one Pro-Ject TT, the Carbon where folks complained about about motor noise. In the same threads I saw plenty of folks with other Pro-Ject TTs that didn't have the issue. I've never owned that brand, but from what I read it doesn't give the impression that it's a consistent issue on all of their TT line.

There's like half a dozen videos on youtube about fixing the hum/motor noise on pro-jects with tens of thousands of views each.

 

[thefsb]

Any feedback from OP?

There were a few likes early on and then the OP moved on to other threads. This was not our best showing. I am a bit ashamed. vinylengine.com is better at this kind of thing.

 

[Robin L]

There were a few likes early on and then the OP moved on to other threads. This was not our best showing. I am a bit ashamed. vinylengine.com is better at this kind of thing.

It's more likely there will be vinyl heretics at this forum, considering that this place is measurement oriented. And confucius_zero made it clear that he was looking for some very specific information.

 

[restorer-john]

Ultrasonic baths are excellent at breaking off whatever is resting deep in the grooves. Just use distilled water and no detergent.

Also really good for breaking off cantilevers...

I got into cleaning old styli for a few seconds only in a small US cleaner. It was amazing when viewed under the microscope- they were like new. I felt like I'd invented the wheel! Then I cleaned my Shure V15III's VN-35MR (yes, the micro-ridge). Cleaned the cantilever alright. Dissolved it in about 1.5 seconds. All I have left is a microscope shot of the stone on a tiny bit of cantiliver. Fished it out of the US cleaner afterwards.

Edit: here is that gorgeous VN35-MR stone. A reminder to haunt me. Looks like the top of the Chrysler Building and crystal clear. Notice the eaten away cantilever? Not one of John's best moments...

Bought a replacement Jico stylus for the type III and gave it to my Dad as I never want to see it again.

 

[restorer-john]

There were a few likes early on and then the OP moved on to other threads. This was not our best showing. I am a bit ashamed. vinylengine.com is better at this kind of thing.

But to be fair, he rolls in and tells us what to post and what not to. Not to discuss anything other than his already made up mind. Whatever.

 

[JeffS7444]

But to be fair, he rolls in and tells us what to post and what not to.

If nothing else, he probably got the sense that no one was keen to endorse any of his choices.

 

[Dimitri]

He did say "Please do not waste your time if you don't know have any insights on the 3 mentionned turn tables. "

In the strictest sense no one should have typed a single keystroke unless they had smelled/ touched/heard/licked/broke/thrown/repaired/ate of off/borrowed or stole any one of the above mentioned 'tables.
Luckily that's not how forums work

 

[Phorize]

But to be fair, he rolls in and tells us what to post and what not to. Not to discuss anything other than his already made up mind. Whatever.

From what I can tell he was given lots of relevant information borne of cumulative decades of experience. It didn’t warrant a reply it seems. No doubt when he is ready to learn a teacher will appear

 

[anmpr1]

This is what Scott Dorsey wrote about it on rec.audio.pro:

"The direct drive systems have big multipole motors, and as the disc
rotates, the motor is going over one pole after another. And as this
happens, the torque changes depending on the position of the platter.
This results in an audible flutter effect called 'cogging' and it's
very distinguishable from other kinds of flutter because there is one
flutter frequency dominant and few sidebands."

I know that's what is claimed. I've never heard it that way. Or any way. The notion that it is "very distinguishable from other kinds of flutter" seems to me a very questionable statement. He's claiming claiming he can hear it off a test record? I guess...

 

[Frank Dernie]

I don't know if I've ever heard it. I've never tested for it or been aware of it specifically. It may be minor in the scheme of things, but it does appear to exist. This is what Scott Dorsey wrote about it on rec.audio.pro:

"The direct drive systems have big multipole motors, and as the disc
rotates, the motor is going over one pole after another. And as this
happens, the torque changes depending on the position of the platter.
This results in an audible flutter effect called 'cogging' and it's
very distinguishable from other kinds of flutter because there is one
flutter frequency dominant and few sidebands."

"Play something with a very long, drawn out note. The Shure test record
1 KHz test tone is going to be the most obvious example, but the whole
notes on a Thelonius Monk piano solo will do also. Listen for a warble.
The warble frequency will be pretty high, so it will be more obvious at
33 rpm. You probably won't be able to hear it at all at 78 rpm. And it
won't be phenomenally obvious at first. But once you hear it, you'll be
hard-pressed not to notice it afterward."

You can't put all designs in one basket, of whichever type. The friction and inertial will effect how much torque fluctuation effects speed fluctuation. When I worked for Garrard they bought a Sony and a Technics (SP10) first generation DD turntable for evaluation and costing.
They were by a country mile the lowest wow and flutter and rumble of any we had measured up to then, including our 401 and the popular sprung sub-chassis belt drives. Since "cogging" would have showed up in the W&F measurement I would say it already wasn't an insoluble problem in 1976, maybe some cheap lightweight plattered units would be worse though.