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Tube Rolling: Does it Make a Difference?

antennaguru

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Yes, tube rolling makes a difference - when the tubes are used in a proper tube circuit with parameters as recommended in their datasheet. First of all there are gain differences between tubes, then there are worn out tubes with low emission, and there are even just internal construction differences between different versions of the same tube that changes the way they amplify. You can often measure the differences electronically on a tube tester, and it is only reasonable that measured differences can result in audible differences.
 

tuga

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I never understand why it's called "rolling tubes" as opposed to "changing tubes". It seems to imply some inherent skill involved in the process.

You're such a drag...
What about it being a fun name for a manly pastime? People can roll...cigarettes.
 

Spkrdctr

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Agreed on most points. But when we get complaints (Reports) we are expected to try to get the thread back on topic. Thread drift is always tolerated here. With the exception of Official Review Threads where staying on topic is important. However in this particular case the thread conversation began to boarder on Religious subjects. Any drift into Politics or Religion will be immediately shut down. These subjects trigger very strong emotions and convictions that are polarizing, insulating, and eventually hinder constructive exchange of ideas and thoughts.

If permitted to continue it always ends bad. People loose their shit and before you know it we have a full on war of words. Rules are broken and Moderators have to carpet bomb warnings and bans to the participants. This is most certainly not the direction nor atmosphere @amirm is striving to create and maintain here. Thank you for your understanding and assistance with this guidance. ;)
I like the words "carpet bombing". It shows our age. Younger pups probably have no idea.......
 

AdamG

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That's a type of pest control for flea outbreaks...right?
It’s what a big dog does to the house if not taken out enough!
 

Holmz

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Agreed on most points. But when we get complaints (Reports) we are expected to try to get the thread back on topic. Thread drift is always tolerated here. With the exception of Official Review Threads where staying on topic is important. However in this particular case the thread conversation began to boarder on Religious subjects. Any drift into Politics or Religion will be immediately shut down. These subjects trigger very strong emotions and convictions that are polarizing, insulating, and eventually hinder constructive exchange of ideas and thoughts.
….

Agree - Back to post #346

First of all, they are just scientists, they are not God! Secondly not all scientists agree with each other and like the sea, .…
...
Science is not absolute.

Of course science is not absolute. That‘s what makes it science… otherwise the earth would still be flat and at the center of the universe, and we would not have quantum physics and an understanding of the nature matter.

In science there are hypothesis that try to correlate what is happening with reality. As they develop they get formed into theories or are malleable enough to get modified to better comport with the causal nature that they are describing.

To say that Audio Science is somehow not a science, gets us back to the “just trust your ears” dialogue… and other magical lines of thought, where everyone has their personal reality which is divorced from the broader universe.
*We do not have to like that science operates that way, but it operates that way whether we like it not.)

In any case the tube rolling either fits into something actually changing, or into a placebo effect.
I can picture changing the tube model would clearly be a different tube, so it should have a different sound.
Changing to a different brand is less certain.
And new tubes replacing old tubes is probably somewhere in between,
 

antennaguru

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The 12AX7 is a pretty common twin triode preamp tube. There are several other tubes that will plug and play in a 12AX7 circuit, but have lower gain. A 12AX7 has a typical gain of 100X, however many companies like Conrad Johnson suggest substituting the 5751 tube in some sockets in their tube preamps as it is a higher grade military type tube and has a typical gain of only 70X. The 12AT7 is also compatible, but with a typical gain of 60X, as is the 12AY7 with a typical gain of 45X. Gain re-distribution in preamp and receiver circuits can affect the sound you hear, and in some cases reduce over-driving a subsequent stage.

Different tube companies varied construction materials (mostly metallurgy) and also the physical shape of grids to affect the flow of electrons within the vacuum of the tube envelope from the tube's cathode to its plate. Some used different grades and thicknesses of thoriated tungsten to provide more or less heating, and thus more or less electron emission. Back in the day when tubes were made in the US there was a lot of science being applied to the building of tubes, yet there were still some variations in tolerances which affected electrical performance and resulted in the grading of tubes.

The problem with tubes as I see it is that from when they are first put into use in a circuit they start flowing electrons and eventually emission drops, so in effect from when you start using them they start wearing out. Larger power tubes tend to wear out faster than smaller preamp tubes, but a lot of tube life can also be affected by the way they are used in the circuit. For example, I built an EL84 ultralinear amp back in the 90s when I was pretty sure tubes would soon go extinct, but I knew that electric guitar players especially loved the EL84 tube and they would still be available for decades. I used a tube rectifier in the high voltage power supply of that amplifier because it would have to warm up to start applying plate voltage, thus promoting longer tube life for what I expected to be a decreasing supply of replacement tubes. Today we call solid state equivalent circuits a "slow-start" or "step-start" design. Interestingly the old fashioned tube rectifier does the same thing by virtue of it having to warm up.

A lot of tubes sold as NOS (New Old Stock) are really used pulls that still test well enough on a tube tester. They might sound different than truly new tubes from the same batch, let alone tubes made via a completely different process today in China or Eastern Europe due to simple materials availability and pricing.

There were books upon books published for use by circuit designers on the "care and feeding" of tubes.

Having said this my preference today happens to be solid state, primarily because of the continual tube degradation issue.
 

MattHooper

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*warning, warning, warning...if you dislike subjective descriptions...avoid, avoid. avoid this post!....*


This is pure subjective anecdote, so worth only as much as anyone here paid for it...

But just to report my own "experience:" I tried tube rolling for the first time this year - pandemic, stuck inside, bored, finding things to fiddle with in the system. I've used mostly Conrad Johnson tube amps for 20 years but whenever it came time to replace tubes I just bought whatever CJ recommended. The sound stayed quite consistent, it seemed to me. I started with my CJ Premier 16LS2 pre-amp which takes six 6822 tubes. Expensive for tube rolling! I tried some different NOS tubes that got good notices, but it seemed to change the tone in a way I didn't like, especially exaggerating the high end, sibilance etc. So that was a loss.

My CJ Premier 12 monoblock power amps (140w/side tube amps) had come with 2 GE 6FQZ tubes and 1 GE 5751 small input tubes. They were the originals that came with the amp so due for replacement, but I tried some other NOS tubes I'd read about somewhere. The sound went more lush, but turned in to sludge. It sounded soft, like what you'd get with a speakers with an underpowered amp. So I tracked down the same NOS tubes that originally came with the amp and...voila! The speakers "woke up" and the original sound was back, tight, punchy, energetic, which was a relief.

Then a while back I happened upon a really good deal from a guy I know selling a pair of CJ Premier 12s that were newer than mine, and had been thoroughly gone over and "updated" at the CJ factory - they had the expensive "Teflon Caps" replacement tweak some CJ owners pay a lot for. Since I could get these amps at not much more than I'd get for selling my old pair, I grabbed them, if only to have a better condition set to replace my old ones.

I was surprised that they seemed to sound damned different than my originals! The sound seemed to just expand in every way - the soundstage, the imaging, the bass depth, everything sounded "bigger" and more expansive like someone had just replaced my speakers with slightly bigger speakers. It was pretty wild. I was skeptical this had anything to do with the expensive Teflon Caps so the first thing I zeroed in on was that these new amps came with different output tubes - KT120s rather than the 6550s my amps normally used. So to experiment I swapped the KT120s for the 6550s in my original Premier 12s and...there it was! That same effect, bass seemed bigger, deeper, a bit more controlled, the sense of soundstage space expanded, bigger sonic images. Going back between the 6550s and KT120 tubes, the 6550s produced a tight, precise, closer to "solid state" level of focus, bass punchy but less deep. The KT120s seemed to slightly de-focus the sound, I could hear instrumental sizes and voices expand, though with less delineated "edges" to the images, the bass warmer and deeper - I'd say that seemed maybe the most obvious apparent difference. I'd just gotten rid of a pair of subwoofers in my system and with the KT120s it sounded more like I had the subwoofers in the system again. (Not saying it actually added that much bass, but subjectively the effect was similar).

Still a novice with tube rolling I did some research on the KT120s and over and over the "reports/reviews" from people trying KT120s was "bigger soundstage" and most often "Wow! The bass! better/deeper/more bass."

So I found it fascinating that what I seemed to hear to my surprise matched what others reported as well.

Once again, given the anecdotal nature I'm not for a moment claiming I've shown anything at all about tube rolling that someone here should accept. Though the impressions reported above seem very convincing to me subjectively, I always hold out that it could be "rolling placebo" in Amirm's words. Though, despite the limited examples in Amirm's review, I do see even in this thread some talk about how tubes could in principle alter the sound, so I'm open minded on the issue at this point.
 

Xulonn

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Does She/He know why no one builds Class A push pull amps? I thought push pull was SOTA.
I am about to order a Chinese Class A, push-pull, EL34 amplifier. Class-A push-pull amplifiers are quite common among the range of Chinese tube amplifiers from budget to expensive "high-end" models. Here's the beautiful Opera Consonance Cyber 100 class-A push-pull KT88 amplifier which costs more than I am willing to pay, so I'm getting another brand with EL34/6C7 power tubes.

1642310597699.png


 

kchap

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I am about to order a Chinese Class A, push-pull, EL34 amplifier. Class-A push-pull amplifiers are quite common among the range of Chinese tube amplifiers from budget to expensive "high-end" models. Here's the beautiful Opera Consonance Cyber 100 class-A push-pull KT88 amplifier which costs more than I am willing to pay, so I'm getting another brand with EL34/6C7 power tubes.

View attachment 179353

I'm not a fan of tube amps but nicely presented. Similarly I admire the workmanship L0rdGwyn puts into his amps.
 

pseudoid

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...so I'm getting another brand with EL34/6C7 power tubes...
Is that only hint you are willing to share w/us?

I find AliExpress (type sites) to be extremely frustrating source-a-plenty for ClassA tubed amps.
The worst part being that the technical information is very scant on such sites; including the lack of details for circuit topology, specifications, schematics, components, etc.
The concept of a "warranty" appear not to have any sort of relevance to these offerings.
AliExpress search for "Class A KT88 tube amp" results in this amazing assortment.
Similar search for "Class A EL34 tube amp" leads to this similar assortment.
 

Xulonn

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Is that only hint you are willing to share w/us?

I find AliExpress (type sites) to be extremely frustrating source-a-plenty for ClassA tubed amps.
The worst part being that the technical information is very scant on such sites; including the lack of details for circuit topology, specifications, schematics, components, etc.
The concept of a "warranty" appear not to have any sort of relevance to these offerings.
AliExpress search for "Class A KT88 tube amp" results in this amazing assortment.
Similar search for "Class A EL34 tube amp" leads to this similar assortment.
I will reveal my choice when I order it - probably later this week - and the reasons for delaying my discussion of its origin.

I also agree about the frustration in trying to find useful detailed technical information at AliExpress and its vendor store pages. Before I posted the comment above with the picture of the Consonance Cyber 100, a KT88 Class-A push-pull amplifier, I searched and searched AliExpress for that simple description, "Class-A push-pull", and found few instances. Unfortunately, one cannot rely on power tube count. As an example, although it loos like a classic push-pull amplifier, the four KT120's in the Musical Paradise MP501 are in a parallel single-ended configuration.

KT120SE - Musical Paradise.jpg

The Opera Audio Co., Ltd is located in Bejing, China, and their excellent and attractive English-language website [LINK] has clear, concise marketing and technical information in perfect English. The product photos are excellent and very attractive. I chose the picture of the Opera/Consonance amplifier partly to show my respect for their effort to make their website as attractive as their products. Other Chinese audio companies could do well by emulating the Opera website - and getting rid of the ubiquitous presence of laughable Chinese to English tube audio translations such as "bile", "gallblader", "fever", "welding", "scaffolding" .

Here is the specification list for the Consonance Cyber 100, which leaves no doubt about the circuit topology!

Specification
Circuit Type: Class A, push-pull amplifier
Power Output: 35 watt, RMS 1kHz
Input Sensitivity: 220mV
Noise and Hum: -90 dB below full output
Frequency Response: (-3dB points at 10 watt) 6Hz-50kHz
Tubes: ECC83 x 1, 5687 x 2, 5AR4 x 2, KT88/ 6550 x 4
Resistors: 1% Metal Film
Input Impedance: 100k ohms
Output Impedance: 4, 8 ohms. User selectable
Consumption: 290watt
Output Interfaces: 1 groups (RCA)
Input Interfaces: 5 groups (RCA) 1,2,3,4,5
Overall Negative Feedback: Little (-6dB)
Warm-Up Time: 3 Minutes
Dimensions: 430 (L) x 380 (W) x 190(H) mm
Weight: 25kg (packed)​
 

Doodski

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I will reveal my choice when I order it - probably later this week - and the reasons for delaying my discussion of its origin.

I also agree about the frustration in trying to find useful detailed technical information at AliExpress and its vendor store pages. Before I posted the comment above with the picture of the Consonance Cyber 100, a KT88 Class-A push-pull amplifier, I searched and searched AliExpress for that simple description, "Class-A push-pull", and found few instances. Unfortunately, one cannot rely on power tube count. As an example, although it loos like a classic push-pull amplifier, the four KT120's in the Musical Paradise MP501 are in a parallel single-ended configuration.


The Opera Audio Co., Ltd is located in Bejing, China, and their excellent and attractive English-language website [LINK] has clear, concise marketing and technical information in perfect English. The product photos are excellent and very attractive. I chose the picture of the Opera/Consonance amplifier partly to show my respect for their effort to make their website as attractive as their products. Other Chinese audio companies could do well by emulating the Opera website - and getting rid of the ubiquitous presence of laughable Chinese to English tube audio translations such as "bile", "gallblader", "fever", "welding", "scaffolding" .

Here is the specification list for the Consonance Cyber 100, which leaves no doubt about the circuit topology!

Specification
Circuit Type: Class A, push-pull amplifier
Power Output: 35 watt, RMS 1kHz
Input Sensitivity: 220mV
Noise and Hum: -90 dB below full output
Frequency Response: (-3dB points at 10 watt) 6Hz-50kHz
Tubes: ECC83 x 1, 5687 x 2, 5AR4 x 2, KT88/ 6550 x 4
Resistors: 1% Metal Film
Input Impedance: 100k ohms
Output Impedance: 4, 8 ohms. User selectable
Consumption: 290watt
Output Interfaces: 1 groups (RCA)
Input Interfaces: 5 groups (RCA) 1,2,3,4,5
Overall Negative Feedback: Little (-6dB)
Warm-Up Time: 3 Minutes
Dimensions: 430 (L) x 380 (W) x 190(H) mm
Weight: 25kg (packed)​
Wowow... That's a great website and the product appears very nice. A comprehensive line-up of different types and models too.
 

pseudoid

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"bile", "gallblader", "fever", "welding", "scaffolding" .
You made me crack up and snort!

In hunt for a 120W dual output ("2-way") LPS, I came across one vendor that had variety of output combinations (5,9,12,15,19,24Vdc) that can be ordered... and one that was called a "DIY".
I was really in the market for a DIY version of an LPS, which are normally shipped with the diodes to change the output voltage (Vdc); as the user's (=me) requirements may change in the future.
So, I selected the "DIY" version for purchase, although seller had no discussion of what "DIY" meant.
I had the sense to state in simple English what I expected "DIY" was to be, as a purchasing Note to the seller.
Hilarity ensued for the next 5 days; What he had meant by "DIY" is what an English speaker would call "custom".
But he wanted to argue that his "DIY" meant "custom", until I text'd him "Dear friend, English is an ugly language but please don't make it more ugly!"
I got the tracking# within one hour.:mad:
I did not want him to spit in my wonton soup, in the kitchen before serving it....

EditAdd: I have lurked for hours in the dark corners of made-in-china website.
 
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Holmz

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Xulonn

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SIY

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Do not conflate differences between tubes to translate to significant difference in circuit performance.

FETs, for example, vary unit to unit by 5:1 or more, tubes are more like 10%. Yet no-one is rolling FETs...
 

pseudoid

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Yet no-one is rolling FETs...
That's because you can only "breakdown" or "deplete" an FET.;)
I don't know what it is called when it comes to swapping OpAmps (some of which are FET-based).
 
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