Trying to understand the turntable/vinyl world...

[MattHooper]

You must listen at a very low level, or your systems noise floor is rather high.

Like vinyl all you want. I do. But let’s stop making shit up about it.

Perhaps I listen at a lower level than you do - usually between 70 - 80dB for me - but there are plenty of records for which I can't hear any record noise floor on my set up. (Using a Benchmark LA4 preamp in to CJ tube amps, phono stage engaged, noise floor is inaudible to me from my seating distance). A number of guests thought I may have been playing CDs for demos since they also didn't hear any record noise (I drop needle and fade up).

Whether you'd hear anything may be a different story if you have much more sensitive hearing I suppose. But for me, if I can't hear it, it's as good as "dead quiet."

 

[rdenney]

I have measured vinyl roar at about -40 dB on needledrops that were normalized to -2 dB at peak. If this peaks are at 75 dB SPL, the roar will be at 35 dB SPL, which is below ambient noise in my house. And the roar for me is in low frequencies, where they will be hard to localize.

But if I’m parking those peaks at 100 dB for loud listening, the roar becomes noticeable. Not necessarily objectionable, but also not silent.

Rick “who can always hear when the needle hits the groove” Denney

 

[dlaloum]

Painting with the board brushes that we are, I can’t agree with that. 301/401 and 124 I had before were plenty tweaky, between warm-up time, speed adjustment, regular cleaning of running surfaces, etc. My SP-10 is running as good as it gets 1/4 second after pressing start, and has done so for 7+ years now, and there’s no indication that it won’t do so for decades more. Once they’re brought up to snuff it’s not like you need to chase them with a soldering iron. Granted, you need someone who knows what they’re doing.



Seems AT have abandoned flat FR in favor of the rising response typically seen with MCs. Disappointing.

Are you sure - or is it due to listeners (measurers?) not properly adjusting the cartridge loading?

 

[dlaloum]

Okay, here we go. VM740ML at 47k, 150pF:

View attachment 182993

The best I could get it was with 36k. My goal here was as flat as I could get for frequencies that matter. There's not much on vinyl above 15k, and I wouldn't be able to hear it anyway. This actually isn't bad at all in that context.

View attachment 182994

150MLX body w/ VMN40ML. You may be able to flatten that a bit by lowering Rl. I didn't try.

View attachment 182996

Last is the VM740 body with ATN150MLX:

View attachment 183003

The 740ML needle is clearly a higher mass cantilever - with a resonance at a lower frequency than that of the 150mlx - and if you balance it out with load to achieve flat to 10k - you are likely to end up with a substantive roll of shortly after 10k. (may not be noticeable)

The 150MLX needle is lower mass - and has higher potential as a result.

I think you need to work a bit more with capacitive loading to tame the rise on the 740ml needle (it will cost some high end extension, as it will roll off earlier - but you will get a flatter response through the more audible parts of the spectrum)

I think the 740ML needle is a revamped 440ml... tapered aluminium cantilever is nice - but not a patch on older generations having boron or beryllium cantilevers.

 

[JP]

That does not make sense. If the noise floor was high I would hear the noise further away from the speakers at lower volumes. Please don't accuse me of "making shit up". I really don't appreciate that.

Something's going on, as dropping a needle produces rather obvious noise at typical listening levels. May not be intrusive or difficult to ignore, but it's certainly there.

Perhaps I listen at a lower level than you do - usually between 70 - 80dB for me - but there are plenty of records for which I can't hear any record noise floor on my set up. (Using a Benchmark LA4 preamp in to CJ tube amps, phono stage engaged, noise floor is inaudible to me from my seating distance). A number of guests thought I may have been playing CDs for demos since they also didn't hear any record noise (I drop needle and fade up).

Whether you'd hear anything may be a different story if you have much more sensitive hearing I suppose. But for me, if I can't hear it, it's as good as "dead quiet."

It's not often I go above 75-ish dB. Sounds like you're talking about noise floor in relation to program material, which I'm not, as clearly program will mask. You may have a different perspective with classical.

"Dead quiet" in your above context makes the term rather meaningless.

I have measured vinyl roar at about -40 dB on needledrops that were normalized to -2 dB at peak. If this peaks are at 75 dB SPL, the roar will be at 35 dB SPL, which is below ambient noise in my house. And the roar for me is in low frequencies, where they will be hard to localize.

But if I’m parking those peaks at 100 dB for loud listening, the roar becomes noticeable. Not necessarily objectionable, but also not silent.

Rick “who can always hear when the needle hits the groove” Denney

I broke out the SPL meter just because you're Rick Denney. My room ambient is 24dBA. My typical listening level with something like an RL pressing of Gaucho is 71dBA peak. At that level, and below, I can clearly hear the needle in the groove. It even registered about 1.5dBA above ambient just now for the lead-in and lead-out of a brand new pristine record.

The only times I have difficulty or can't hear the noise floor is if I'm listening to a fresh lacquer. Dead quiet is just not a phrase that should be uttered around vinyl, ever.

 

[JP]

The 740ML needle is clearly a higher mass cantilever - with a resonance at a lower frequency than that of the 150mlx - and if you balance it out with load to achieve flat to 10k - you are likely to end up with a substantive roll of shortly after 10k. (may not be noticeable)

The 150MLX needle is lower mass - and has higher potential as a result.

I think you need to work a bit more with capacitive loading to tame the rise on the 740ml needle (it will cost some high end extension, as it will roll off earlier - but you will get a flatter response through the more audible parts of the spectrum)

I think the 740ML needle is a revamped 440ml... tapered aluminium cantilever is nice - but not a patch on older generations having boron or beryllium cantilevers.

Cl isn't getting any lower. Phono stage is about 25pF itself, and the cable is all of 8 inches. If anything 150pF may be a bit over-stated.

I don't have much motivation to play with it as I've a dozen ATN-150MLX stashed away in addition to other well-performing styli. Regardless, for the average person who can't go through super-heroic efforts on loading, it's a miss. Even the required Cl on the 150MLX was a reach too far for the majority of setups.

 

[JP]

I think the 740ML needle is a revamped 440ml... tapered aluminium cantilever is nice - but not a patch on older generations having boron or beryllium cantilevers.

Yes, it's right in that ballpark.

 

[mackat]

Okay, here we go. VM740ML at 47k, 150pF:

View attachment 182993

The best I could get it was with 36k. My goal here was as flat as I could get for frequencies that matter. There's not much on vinyl above 15k, and I wouldn't be able to hear it anyway. This actually isn't bad at all in that context.

View attachment 182994

150MLX body w/ VMN40ML. You may be able to flatten that a bit by lowering Rl. I didn't try.

View attachment 182996

Last is the VM740 body with ATN150MLX:

View attachment 183003

Thanks for uploading the measurements, they are certainly interesting. I have a VMN40ML on an MLX body and it doesn't sound too different to me than the 540ML (which the graphs seem to confirm, but I am no expert). I really need to get an original 150MLX stylus. I've come close once or twice, but haven't gotten one yet.

 

[JP]

Thanks for uploading the measurements, they are certainly interesting. I have a VMN40ML on an MLX body and it doesn't sound too different to me than the 540ML (which the graphs seem to confirm, but I am no expert). I really need to get an original 150MLX stylus. I've come close once or twice, but haven't gotten one yet.

Ya it’s not hugely objectionable. I noticed it right away, but I’m used to flat. That said it was a fine listen.

 

[MattHooper]

It's not often I go above 75-ish dB. Sounds like you're talking about noise floor in relation to program material, which I'm not, as clearly program will mask. You may have a different perspective with classical.

"Dead quiet" in your above context makes the term rather meaningless.

No I was talking about record noise in between content - e.g. at the start of the record and in between songs. In particular "background record hiss." I have plenty of albums that sound silent to me from my listening position in that regard.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Cl isn't getting any lower. Phono stage is about 25pF itself, and the cable is all of 8 inches. If anything 150pF may be a bit over-stated.

I don't have much motivation to play with it as I've a dozen ATN-150MLX stashed away in addition to other well-performing styli. Regardless, for the average person who can't go through super-heroic efforts on loading, it's a miss. Even the required Cl on the 150MLX was a reach too far for the majority of setups.

Capacitance can be a problem with moving magnets. Going to a decent - not over priced moving coil can solve this. The Hana SL won't break the bank but really checks off all the boxes - at least for me.

 

[JP]

Capacitance can be a problem with moving magnets. Going to a decent - not over priced moving coil can solve this. The Hana SL won't break the bank but really checks off all the boxes - at least for me.

Sorry, that’s not it.

 

[JP]

No I was talking about record noise in between content - e.g. at the start of the record and in between songs. In particular "background record hiss." I have plenty of albums that sound silent to me from my listening position in that regard.

Remarkable. I’ve never not heard it on any system unless the overall noise floor was high or ambient was high. Plain as day.

 

[qec]

At some level this whole discussion seems ridiculous. I watch antique car auctions many times a month. Those cars are beautiful but no one in their right mind will (should) argue that they are better than any number of current cars from any objectionable stand point. Spinning records is just plain fun and the turntables that cost lots of money often look very cool. If you can afford such things than have at it. Just don't tell everyone that somehow it is the ultimate in sounds reproduction because it simply is not. If you only have $1000 to spend on a system and you want the best sound possible then don't waste your money on vinyl. If you treat music as a hobby like I do then spend your money any way your want. I love some of those super expensive turntables from an aesthetics standpoint. If I hit the lottery they will be on my short list

 

[Sal1950]

At some level this whole discussion seems ridiculous. I watch antique car auctions many times a month. Those cars are beautiful but no one in their right mind will (should) argue that they are better than any number of current cars from any objectionable stand point.

Not seems,, it IS ridiculous LOL

Spinning records is just plain fun and the turntables that cost lots of money often look very cool.

Maybe for you/them, for me in the 1950's, 60's 70's 80's and 90's it was simply, (now let me spell this out) A Major Pain In The Ass! One of my best days in audio was when I handed some vinyl dealer every single LP I had collected in those last 5 decades, and he handed me a big wad of CASH.
In the words of the Steve Miller Band "Take the money and run"

Just don't tell everyone that somehow it is the ultimate in sounds reproduction because it simply is not.

Thank you very much kind sir.

 

[MattHooper]

Remarkable. I’ve never not heard it on any system unless the overall noise floor was high or ambient was high. Plain as day.

I guess it depends on the system/sound level/listener.

I've dropped needles on a record and wondered at first if I'd not turned something on (amp, phono or whatever) because I couldn't hear anything
at all suggesting the record was playing. Then, bam, the music starts. Doesn't necessarily mean you wouldn't have heard it though.
(I do have good hearing for my age FWIW).

 

[rdenney]

I broke out the SPL meter just because you're Rick Denney. My room ambient is 24dBA. My typical listening level with something like an RL pressing of Gaucho is 71dBA peak. At that level, and below, I can clearly hear the needle in the groove. It even registered about 1.5dBA above ambient just now for the lead-in and lead-out of a brand new pristine record.

The only times I have difficulty or can't hear the noise floor is if I'm listening to a fresh lacquer. Dead quiet is just not a phrase that should be uttered around vinyl, ever.

Your room is quieter than mine by 15 dB, at least with A weighting. But I listen louder than you do. Even so, I can also always hear the needle in the groove. It would take a pretty high noise floor or a pretty low listening level to mask it—that was your point and it’s true for me, too.

Rick “nothing special” Denney

 

[Bob from Florida]

Sorry, that’s not it.

The capacitance of the cable of my tonearm is 176 pf - if I remember correctly - plus the minimum of my phono stage - 100 pf yields 276 pf. This is high enough to produce resonance peaking - MM cartridge inductance dependent - that can be heard. I am pointing out that moving coils eliminate the peaking due to capacitive loading. They create other issues if not loaded correctly - anemic bass for example.

 

[JP]

The capacitance of the cable of my tonearm is 176 pf - if I remember correctly - plus the minimum of my phono stage - 100 pf yields 276 pf. This is high enough to produce resonance peaking - MM cartridge inductance dependent - that can be heard. I am pointing out that moving coils eliminate the peaking due to capacitive loading. They create other issues if not loaded correctly - anemic bass for example.

Yes, I’m rather well-versed on how it works (it’s more nuanced than that), and my other posts in this thread during this conversation clearly demonstrate that it’s an issue I don’t have. Regardless, it isn’t going to contribute in any meaningful way to this.

Separately is your Hana flat? A flat MC is a rare beast.

 

[dlaloum]

A flat MC is a rare beast.

Dynavector Karat... quite exceptional.