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Trying to understand the turntable/vinyl world...

Yo TBone, what's the voodoo objects sitting on your Topping ...

secret device ...

well, not, but it served a purpose ...

very heavy alphason sonata tt clamp/weight, needed to keep the light topping e30 (not mine) in place.

Have you gone to the Dark Side on us? LOL

not gone, there ... on top of the weight sits a bdr cone.

(removed it from a old speaker, had to go somewhere)

Beware of what you might conjure up. o_O

mixed in a topping e30, dac mode into classe pre ...

3 setups ... usb pi, usb thinkpad, toslink macbook (even@192) ... sonics didn't matter bc unit sounded ~ much ~ the same any setup ... my fav therefore was the lazy stay-seated-on-rear convenience of pi/android.

E30 owner wished to compare sq with my macbook/toslink/sony pro w66 dac ... (akm "velvet" vs akm ...)
 
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This a rather wide-ranging topic. So a few points, my apologies if these have previously been covered

I collect linear tracking turntables and restore them to operational condition and best possible aesthetic condition. I have owned a B&O 4002 and two Pioneer PL-L1000A turntables from new. All servo assisted tonearms should just be considered a pivoted tonearm with a movable pivot point. Most of them track better than the eccentricity of the majority of LPs. I confirmed this a long time ago when I first got the B&O, I had the covers off tuning up the tracking and noticed the tonearm moved once a revolution at exactly the same radial position, that is, it was moving at the peak eccentricity of the LP. I found this occurred for the majority of the LPs I tried. So I discount the often cited problem of the stop start tracking and "crab walk across the LP" to no worse than any other form of tonearm. However, the linear trackers have other advantages, not the least of which is a much shorter tonearm with all the associated advantages. Aerodynamic bearing (levitated) and anti-friction bearing, passive tonearms are a totally different story, also not pretty.

There is little point in discussing turntable performance unless you first consider cutting lathe performance. Most late model, relatively high end, direct drive, turntables outperform the cutting lathes used to create the lacquer masters in W&F, rumble, speed accuracy, etc by a reasonable margin. I covered this is a posting in another thread some time ago:

There are some subsequent posts in that thread that may be of interest.

Cutting head geometry compared to cartridge geometry and the effects of the mismatch is a very poorly understood area, this is before we take into account the mistraking of a cartridge that is not optimally adjusted. In many cases, there is no way of knowing the optimal setup of a cartridge. I once did a long thread on this subject over at Vinylengine, but one of the posters went off the deep end and the thread was frozen and now appears to have been deleted, a pity.

Anyhow, to put it in perspective, there were really only three cutter heads of two different geometries used to cut most vinyl. We can simplify this to two, the Neumann cutter and the Ortofon cutter (the other was essentially a clone of the Neumann). The Ortofon cutter used a very different mechanism to the Neumann. I do not know for certain, but I do not think that the Ortofon cutter head has been used by anyone for quite some time - they were very delicate devices. For interest, all CD-4 quadraphonic and half speed mastered records (CD-4 HAD to be half speed mastered) were cut by the Ortofon cutter head. All direct metal masters were done using Neumann cutters. Neither of these technologies was ever properly developed as they came too late in the game. Also of interest, both the Ortofon and Neumann geometries were first described in a single patent by the extraordinary Alan Blumlein who both invented stereo and made the first recordings in stereo. He tragically died during WWII in an aircraft crash while testing HS2 radar.


I will cut this short, the description of the Neumann cutter head and the issues it presents is a very complex subject, perhaps more at a later time. That is, more disturbing information about the cutting process for the vinyl purists out there to digest.

Bob
 
I always use a cleaning brush before every play. My turntable also has an acrylic dust cover which is always in place. I've always kept my records in their sleeves and in a dust free space, so I've never had to use any further cleaning methods. Also, I've replaced all the paper record sleeves with poly lined ones. There are records I have from the 70s which I know so well that I can say 'there goes that one click which has always been there from when the record was new', and there is no further noise I've noticed. So yes, record noise and clicks/pops are not a given if simple precautions are followed. I've had friends who clean their records with a machine before every play - I believe that's massive overkill and more likely to cause damage than anything else.
Wonderful for you & you do what I have done, mostly not using a record cleaning machine. At this juncture, many people are buying used records & how they were handled & stored is likely questionable. Anything I buy that is used gets the record machine (in my case: a manual one) and then the care routine that you follow. I agree that machine cleaning is generally unnecessary once it has been done the first time.
 
I disagree. I've bought a £15 DVD player which was as good as anything needs to be, to play CDs, and I even bought a very cheap (£5) portable CD player which although quite nasty mechanically, again played CDs as well as they need to be. If you want something that will last 10 years + of daily use, then I accept that won't be a £5-£15 player, but as far as sound quality goes, even these cheap players are Good Enough.

That can't be said for any cheap record player of the Crosley variety, which won't sound even adequate, and the cartridge and stylus will do nothing for record wear.

S.
When I make a purchase, I expect it to last many years, no matter what it is. I bought a under $40 CD player as a gift once, it failed on the 91st day of the 90 day warranty. I will never purchase anything from that company again nor will I ever buy on price again (yes, it sounded OK for it's intended application. My motto on such things in purchasing NEW is: you may not get what you pay for (perhaps thinking that a high price is better) but you will likely never get what you don't pay for (by being too concerned about buying cheap). Used is another ball game all together and sometimes you are just in the right place at the right time to get a phenomenal deal on a used piece of gear.
 
Well, I thought CD players were precision machines as much as a TT are. Maybe Im wrong. Doesn't laser has to be very precisely focused at the right spot while the motor has to spin at constant angular velocity all the time? Maybe CDs being digital media have a lot more room for signal correction and we just don't notice the errors.
I expected that as time passes, technology gets cheaper and cheaper. It doesn't seem to be the case for TT.
I have seen and listened fine, expensive "HiFi" TT and CD players.
But they have always been connected to expensive amps and high end expensive speakers so it is hard (actually impossible) to compare the sound of the source against whatever I have back at home.
Cheap lasers burn up, maybe it's a good laser but they cheaped out on the glue that holds it in place or the electronics that operate the laser are failure prone. There are many things one cannot see or know in a CD player (except by reputation & the experience of others). Particularly repair shops (a good repair shop can refer you to good used deals that may have even had mods done to make the machine better than the accountants allowed it to be from the factory).
 
I agree that vinyl cleaning is critical - and the first time you encounter a record, whether new or used, it should be cleaned as thoroughly as you can make it.

I have a vintage SOTA vacuum cleaning machine, but I also built myself an Ultrasonic cleaner (which does a better job, but requires more setup/time-space, etc... so often I use the more convenient vacuum cleaner).

Some used records are so disgusting, that nothing but multiple cleanings with multiple different methods will get them pristine....
 
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This a rather wide-ranging topic. So a few points, my apologies if these have previously been covered

I collect linear tracking turntables and restore them to operational condition and best possible aesthetic condition. I have owned a B&O 4002 and two Pioneer PL-L1000A turntables from new. All servo assisted tonearms should just be considered a pivoted tonearm with a movable pivot point. Most of them track better than the eccentricity of the majority of LPs. I confirmed this a long time ago when I first got the B&O, I had the covers off tuning up the tracking and noticed the tonearm moved once a revolution at exactly the same radial position, that is, it was moving at the peak eccentricity of the LP. I found this occurred for the majority of the LPs I tried. So I discount the often cited problem of the stop start tracking and "crab walk across the LP" to no worse than any other form of tonearm. However, the linear trackers have other advantages, not the least of which is a much shorter tonearm with all the associated advantages. Aerodynamic bearing (levitated) and anti-friction bearing, passive tonearms are a totally different story, also not pretty.

There is little point in discussing turntable performance unless you first consider cutting lathe performance. Most late model, relatively high end, direct drive, turntables outperform the cutting lathes used to create the lacquer masters in W&F, rumble, speed accuracy, etc by a reasonable margin. I covered this is a posting in another thread some time ago:

There are some subsequent posts in that thread that may be of interest.

Cutting head geometry compared to cartridge geometry and the effects of the mismatch is a very poorly understood area, this is before we take into account the mistraking of a cartridge that is not optimally adjusted. In many cases, there is no way of knowing the optimal setup of a cartridge. I once did a long thread on this subject over at Vinylengine, but one of the posters went off the deep end and the thread was frozen and now appears to have been deleted, a pity.

Anyhow, to put it in perspective, there were really only three cutter heads of two different geometries used to cut most vinyl. We can simplify this to two, the Neumann cutter and the Ortofon cutter (the other was essentially a clone of the Neumann). The Ortofon cutter used a very different mechanism to the Neumann. I do not know for certain, but I do not think that the Ortofon cutter head has been used by anyone for quite some time - they were very delicate devices. For interest, all CD-4 quadraphonic and half speed mastered records (CD-4 HAD to be half speed mastered) were cut by the Ortofon cutter head. All direct metal masters were done using Neumann cutters. Neither of these technologies was ever properly developed as they came too late in the game. Also of interest, both the Ortofon and Neumann geometries were first described in a single patent by the extraordinary Alan Blumlein who both invented stereo and made the first recordings in stereo. He tragically died during WWII in an aircraft crash while testing HS2 radar.


I will cut this short, the description of the Neumann cutter head and the issues it presents is a very complex subject, perhaps more at a later time. That is, more disturbing information about the cutting process for the vinyl purists out there to digest.

Bob
Just to further disturb the belt drive purists.... the cutting lathes were Direct Drive... and the late ones used a technics SP02 drive....

(ok so I'm trolling just a bit... but whatever flaws people claim are involved with direct drives, must perforce be baked into every record, if they have come off a direct drive lathe... which they ALL have!)
 
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Just to further disturb the belt drive purists.... the cutting lathes were Direct Drive... and the late ones used a technics SP02 drive....

(ok so I'm trolling just a bit... but whatever flaws people claim are involved with direct drives, must perforce be baked into every record, if they have come off a direct drive lathe... which they ALL have!)
I would speculate - with no references - that manufacturing cost is the driving belts versus direct drive. It is simply cheaper. Now you can have super expensive versions of either, but belt drive is pretty simple.
Whatever works - works.
 
I would speculate - with no references - that manufacturing cost is the driving belts versus direct drive. It is simply cheaper. Now you can have super expensive versions of either, but belt drive is pretty simple.
Whatever works - works.
Yes, - to add to that... my own theory:

Belt Drives are easily made with basic carpentry skills and minimal electronics knowledge.

Decent direct drives require substantial high precision engineering capabilities, in addition to substantial electronics and digital/electronic control knowhow...

Belt Drives are viable for a boutique business that makes a handful of TT's per annum
Direct Drives require manufacturing capabilities that require thousands of drives (tens of thousands? more?) per annum to be viable.

With the development of 3D printing technologies, and comoditisation of digital controls, the boutique businesses may well be able to get into DD... but it has yet to happen.
 
Yes, - to add to that... my own theory:

Belt Drives are easily made with basic carpentry skills and minimal electronics knowledge.

Decent direct drives require substantial high precision engineering capabilities, in addition to substantial electronics and digital/electronic control knowhow...

Belt Drives are viable for a boutique business that makes a handful of TT's per annum
Direct Drives require manufacturing capabilities that require thousands of drives (tens of thousands? more?) per annum to be viable.

With the development of 3D printing technologies, and comoditisation of digital controls, the boutique businesses may well be able to get into DD... but it has yet to happen.
Sadly, the prevailing 'audiophile' attitude is that belt drives are better than rim drives, which are better than direct drives. (with a few exceptions like the Garrard 301/401!) A 'boutique' manufacturer requires high prices, and sells predominantly to the technically uneducated, so belt drive it will be.

S.
 
I have friends who are professional photographers. They all use expensive digital cameras. They all love their old film cameras as "objet d'art".

My son, he of the modern age, was appalled when I no longer bought physical CD's. I asked him why. He said "Well, you don't get a nice physical case with artwork, notes, lyrics sometimes, and it's nice have the surety of an object". He does know it's all online, but he's right that it is not the same. He'd draw the line at LPs though - "listening to endless fly-s*it on the quiet passages, and great big things to store somewhere? All that risky fiddling about? Nah".
 
Disc cutting lathes require high torque for the cutting process so direct drive is the logical choice. Home turntables do not need much torque at all, so belts are a natural way to go.
 
Harleys use belt drive to transmit 50-100 kW. Other belts drive up to 1000 kW.

Engineering is not as simple as you make out.

Direct drive is better for home turntables because it can deliver the key performance requirements better. The reasons belt drive is widely used instead is as per @dlaloum’s “own theory”, which has been known for decades. It takes real engineers doing real engineering, plus engineering-grade manufacturing, to design and construct from scratch a bespoke direct drive turntable. The Japanese had that in the 70s, and made the best TT’s in the world, and the cottage industries in the West had no hope of matching them, so the myth that they sounded ‘lifeless’ and ‘sterile’ and devoid of ‘PRAT’ suddenly appeared, along with the myth that belt drive TTs had those properties, especially if they were made by small companies based in the West, whose engineering amounted to a few carpenters and a lathe operator, plus a CE who had a good relationship with the English or Euro media.
 
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Harleys use belt drive to transmit 50-100 kW. Other belts drive up to 1000 kW.

Engineering is not as simple as you make out.

Direct drive is better for home turntables because it can deliver the key performance requirements better. The reasons belt drive is widely used instead is as per @dlaloum’s “own theory”, which has been known for decades. It takes real engineers doing real engineering, plus engineering-grade manufacturing, to design and construct from scratch a bespoke direct drive turntable. The Japanese had that in the 70s, and made the best TT’s in the world, and the cottage industries in the West had no hope of matching them, so the myth that they sounded ‘lifeless’ and ‘sterile’ and devoid of ‘PRAT’ suddenly appeared, along with the myth that belt drive TTs had those properties, especially if they were made by small companies based in the West, whose engineering amounted to a few carpenters and a lathe operator, plus a CE who had a good relationship with the English or Euro media.
Actually some early cutting lathes and turntables used gears but I won't get into that.
 
Very early stuff can be crude. Nearly as crude as some modern high-end TTs.
 
Very early stuff can be crude. Nearly as crude as some modern high-end TTs.
Almost certainly gears in action with this Vitaphone disc reproducer. ;)

Vitaphone_Projector_Cuing_up_Disk.jpg
 
Actually some early cutting lathes and turntables used gears but I won't get into that.
There's a reason for using gears, or very strong direct drive for cutting, and that's to reduce dynamic wow. When the cutting stylus encounters a region of heavy modulation, the drag on the turntable due to the cutting stylus increases, so the cutter turntable needs a lot more inertia and drive power to maintain a steady speed. Having a big motor and a direct (or gear coupled) drive will go a long way to overcome this. A flexible belt won't do.

On the replay side, a belt-driven turntable needs a large inertia, i.e. large mass on the outside, to avoid the same thing. Direct drive is fine if, and only if, the servo controlling the speed has optimal damping with no overshoot or lag, otherwise the dynamic wow will be considerable. The problem is that all wow&flutter meters work on a steady 3k or 3.15k tone, so don't measure dynamic wow at all. In fact, I can't think of any way of measuring dynamic wow in a repeatable manner, as it depends entirely on the programme material.

S
 
In 2019 I bought a "cheap" AT LP120X turntable (not really the same as AT LP120 but cheaper)
Glad you enjoyed it, but i have a different experience with it. Bought a Yamaha A-S 701 and one of those for 300€.

The slightest touch to the plastic enclosure would make it into the speakers. It played records ok, had no wow/flutter of note and proper antiscate. Sold it to a young man for 50€ and gave him 20 LPs on top because i was a bit ashamed to rip him off.

You could have had something like that for 250€ or so:
denon.jpg
 
Sadly, the prevailing 'audiophile' attitude is that belt drives are better than rim drives, which are better than direct drives. (with a few exceptions like the Garrard 301/401!) A 'boutique' manufacturer requires high prices, and sells predominantly to the technically uneducated, so belt drive it will be.

S.
With all the easily audible flaws in the vinyl cutting and playback chain, what possible difference can there really be between the best of the 3? Pick your fav and roll with it.
If your really interested in SOTA sound quality, go digital. ;)
 
With all the easily audible flaws in the vinyl cutting and playback chain, what possible difference can there really be between the best of the 3? Pick your fav and roll with it.
I think a direct drive has the chance to live longer, without needing service ever. Belt driven? You have to hunt for a new belt every few years. If everything else is fully automatic and servo driven, there is nothing much to do either, except changing the caps once.
 
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