ADC or analogue pre-amp for TT integration?

[funk_joel]

Hi!

Long time lurker here looking for advice on how to integrate a TT into my system. I have a Cambridge Audio CXN100 streaming DAC plugged directly into a Simaudio 330A poweramp - and the sound is great. But I would like to try if Vinyl is anything for me, having abandoned all the CD:s and casettes from my youth for streaming services for the past 20 years.

The easiest way seems to be a moderately priced TT (like the Audio Technica LP5X), a used phono-preamp and a cheap ADC, like the Swissonic (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...c-converter-ad-24-192-adc-measurements.24187/), connected to the CXN100. But is the Swissonic a bottle neck here? Would the new miniDSP ADept or ParksAudio Waxwing be noticable better? Or would I be better off spending an extra 500/800$/€ on an analogue pre-amp, like a Schiit Saga 2 / Kara (after shipping and duties to Europe)? I kind of like my two box setup now, and would like to avoid adding unnecessary boxes.

I like the idea of spending just ~600$/€ on a TT, used phono-preamp and a Swissonic to try out the whole vinyl business - but of course it's not worth it if the whole setup just sounds bad. And by bad, I mean bad compared to the sound I can expect out of vinyl, not compared with my high-res streaming service.

Any and all advice highly appriciated!

 

[JeremyFife]

Why not try a little passive preamp, like the schiit sys, and route your DAC and the new TT into it. No need for ADC.

ADC becomes interesting if you can apply DSP in the digital domain to all your sources. That can come later, if you fancy it.

 

[funk_joel]

Why not try a little passive preamp, like the schiit sys, and route your DAC and the new TT into it. No need for ADC.

Thanks for the suggestion! If the sys came with a remote, that would be neat! But I am lazy enough to require a way to change the volume from the comfort of my couch. (My TV is also hooked to the system…) Hence I’d have to go for at least a Saga from the Schiit lineup, which is significantly more expensive than a Swissonic.

 

[JeremyFife]

Fair enough. You could replace your CXN100 with a WiiM ultra: phono stage, good DAC, HDMI input and decent room correction / PEQ. And it has a remote!
Worth a thought

 

[Salt]

For TT a waxwing or, high level, RME ...read about a sugarcube lately, so ...

 

[mike70]

For TT a waxwing or, high level, RME ...read about a sugarcube lately, so ...

Don't buy a sugarcube, buy a record cleaning machine. Much cheaper and take care of records and stylus.
One of my best investment in analog music reproduction.

 

[Salt]

Well, besides best vinyl preparation, perhaps the path vinyl --> digitizing --> RIAA (or any other choice) is not that wrong

 

[funk_joel]

Thank you for the suggestions, everyone. A streaming DAC pre-amp with the functionality of the Wiim Ultra would indeed be the solution with the least boxes, but I just got the CXN100 and I am a bit hesitant to switch it out immediately.

A waxwing looks like the ideal solution, but it comes in at 500 USD + ~35% for shipping, taxes and tolls for import to Norway. Can anyone give a rough verbal description of what kind of improvement it would offer over a Swissonic?

 

[Jas0_0]

You could buy a cheap MC cartridge for about €200 for the turntable and a used RME Fireface 400 (they go for about €150-200).

Plug the turntable into it the Fireface mic inputs and send a line-level digital output to your DAC via coax or optical.

That would leave €200-250 for the turntable to hit your €600 budget, and only add one more box.

EDIT: I forgot about RIAA… you’d need to send the signal to a computer from the RME and do it digitally in something like Audio Hijack. Perhaps this isn’t the best suggestion after all.

 

[JeremyFife]

Thank you for the suggestions, everyone. A streaming DAC pre-amp with the functionality of the Wiim Ultra would indeed be the solution with the least boxes, but I just got the CXN100 and I am a bit hesitant to switch it out immediately.

A waxwing looks like the ideal solution, but it comes in at 500 USD + ~35% for shipping, taxes and tolls for import to Norway. Can anyone give a rough verbal description of what kind of improvement it would offer over a Swissonic?

The waxwing will give you huge flexibility for adjusting parameters to accommodate different cartridges... it's a fantastic thing if you want to fiddle with a vinyl setup and devote endless hours to it. Overkill for you (and me) I think. Should have lower noise/distortion but possibly not audibly.

For now, either go with the Swissonic and see what it's like (probably fine) or get a simple preamp (and, gasp, accept that there's no remote when you play records ).
Go simple, try it out, see if you play records a lot and upgrade from there.

 

[mike70]

there's no remote when you play records

That's one of the stronger points to vinyl ... a record is to PLAY an album. For uncompromised listening and "next button nerviosa" use streaming.

 

[funk_joel]

The waxwing will give you huge flexibility for adjusting parameters to accommodate different cartridges... it's a fantastic thing if you want to fiddle with a vinyl setup and devote endless hours to it. Overkill for you (and me) I think. Should have lower noise/distortion but possibly not audibly.

For now, either go with the Swissonic and see what it's like (probably fine) or get a simple preamp (and, gasp, accept that there's no remote when you play records ).
Go simple, try it out, see if you play records a lot and upgrade from there.

This makes a lot of sense and it’s my current feeling also.

But just to clarify, when you say “no remote when playing records” - are you saying I could connect both the CNX100 -and- a cheap pre-amp, like the sys, to my power amp? In theory this is possible, I could connect the CXN100 with XLR cables and the vinyl chain through a sys to the RCA input of the 330A. I just read somewhere that I should avoid connecting two things at once to the power amp (even if only one of them would ever be on). But if it’s possible it would solve everything. I can definitively live without a remote only for the vinyl playback.

 

[JeremyFife]

This makes a lot of sense and it’s my current feeling also.

But just to clarify, when you say “no remote when playing records” - are you saying I could connect both the CNX100 -and- a cheap pre-amp, like the sys, to my power amp? In theory this is possible, I could connect the CXN100 with XLR cables and the vinyl chain through a sys to the RCA input of the 330A. I just read somewhere that I should avoid connecting two things at once to the power amp (even if only one of them would ever be on). But if it’s possible it would solve everything. I can definitively live without a remote only for the vinyl playback.

Hi, sort of ...

Connecting both your CNX100 and a vinyl source separately to your power amp should be fine - although I'd want some of the more experienced posters here to confirm.

I actually meant to connect your CNX100 and your vinyl source to a simple passive preamp and connect that to your power amp. Use the passive preamp for switching and for vinyl volume control.

I've had a proper look at your equipment now (was lazy before) and recognise that the Sys isn't the best option: your CNX100 only has balanced output.
Something like the Behringer Monitor 1 accepts balanced and single ended inputs. You'd need a RCA to stereo mini-jack cable but that's easy.

Hope that makes sense

 

[DVDdoug]

A waxwing looks like the ideal solution, but it comes in at 500 USD + ~35% for shipping, taxes and tolls for import to Norway. Can anyone give a rough verbal description of what kind of improvement it would offer over a Swissonic?

Does the Swissonic have noise reduction? That's the main feature of the Waxwing (and SugarCube). The "snap", "crackle", and "pop" where what annoyed me most about records back in the analog days. I tried to take care of my records but they still "developed" clicks & pops and deteriorated over time.

...But then you'll be missing out on the "warm crackle" of vinyl, so what's the point?

I haven't heard the Waxwing. I have used click reduction software on digitized vinyl files and it's usually very good but it's not perfect on all clicks & pops. The software I've used the most is "manual" so you have to identify the defects and it doesn't "touch" the remaining audio. But of course that doesn't work in real-time.

 

[dualazmak]

I recently revived my TT DENON DP57L(+MC DL-301MkII) in my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system; I use reasonably affordable phono preamp Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 and reasonably affordable ADC TASCAM US-1x2HR.

If you would be interested, please visit my post #688 and #697 on my project thread.
Revival of analog LP player (MC cartridge) in my DSP multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo system for real time on-the-fly vinyl LP listening (and digital recording, if needed): #688
Inside of Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 phono preamplifier, and successful DIY suppression of inaudible EMF (electro-magnetic field) interference noise: #697

I can listen to vinyl LP "live = on-the-fly" with no audible latency (delay) as shared in #692 and #694.

This post would be also of your reference and interest;
Summary of my motivations reviving vinyl TT (turntable) in DSP-based multichannel time-aligned multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio setup: #758

BTW, you would please find the details of my latest system setup as of June 26 2024 including TT chain in my post #931;
The latest system setup of my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio rig, including updated startup/ignition sequences and shutdown sequences: as of June 26, 2024: #931

 

[JeremyFife]

This thread might be interesting - I hadn't thought of using a headphone amp as a preamp but it makes sense - https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/are-passive-preamps-bad.57096/

 

[funk_joel]

This thread might be interesting - I hadn't thought of using a headphone amp as a preamp but it makes sense - https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/are-passive-preamps-bad.57096/

This is an interesting point! I could in principle get a Schiit Midgard for 1/3 of the price of a Kara with the same functionality, a better headphone amp and equally good measurements from the pre-outputs (although for just two inputs and without the all important remote). I’d be happy to pay 100$ more for a Midgard with a remote!

 

[funk_joel]

Does the Swissonic have noise reduction?

...But then you'll be missing out on the "warm crackle" of vinyl, so what's the point?

No, the Swissonic doesn’t have noise reduction or level control (which someone said could be an issue if the input signal isn’t just right). Although I suppose this could be mitigated somewhat with a RIAA-stage with variable gain settings and a suitable output voltage.

And I don’t think I would mind the “warm crackle of vinyl”; I’d consider it a feature not a bug, since I still have my streaming service for “clean” tracks.

I would be willing to pay extra for an all-in-one quality RIAA/ADC box, three times as much compared with a separate RIAA and the Swissonic just sounds quite steep.

 

[funk_joel]

I recently revived my TT DENON DP57L(+MC DL-301MkII) in my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system; I use reasonably affordable phono preamp Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 and reasonably affordable ADC TASCAM US-1x2HR.

If you would be interested, please visit my post #688 and #697 on my project thread.
Revival of analog LP player (MC cartridge) in my DSP multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo system for real time on-the-fly vinyl LP listening (and digital recording, if needed): #688
Inside of Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 phono preamplifier, and successful DIY suppression of inaudible EMF (electro-magnetic field) interference noise: #697

I can listen to vinyl LP "live = on-the-fly" with no audible latency (delay) as shared in #692 and #694.

This post would be also of your reference and interest;
Summary of my motivations reviving vinyl TT (turntable) in DSP-based multichannel time-aligned multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio setup: #758

BTW, you would please find the details of my latest system setup as of June 26 2024 including TT chain in my post #931;
The latest system setup of my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio rig, including updated startup/ignition sequences and shutdown sequences: as of June 26, 2024: #931

Thank you very much for all the references, dualazmak! I will have to study them with some time. Although I can already say that it is nice to meet a fellow chemist here. I also have a background in organic and computational chemistry.

Using an USB audio-interface with a Rasberry Pi-type computer would certainly be a cost effective option, but perhaps too much for my needs at this time, since I’m not looking to do any kind of DSP. But I’ll keep this in mind for the future!

 

[funk_joel]

Hi, sort of ...

Connecting both your CNX100 and a vinyl source separately to your power amp should be fine - although I'd want some of the more experienced posters here to confirm.

I actually meant to connect your CNX100 and your vinyl source to a simple passive preamp and connect that to your power amp. Use the passive preamp for switching and for vinyl volume control.

I've had a proper look at your equipment now (was lazy before) and recognise that the Sys isn't the best option: your CNX100 only has balanced output.
Something like the Behringer Monitor 1 accepts balanced and single ended inputs. You'd need a RCA to stereo mini-jack cable but that's easy.

Hope that makes sense

Yes, that makes sense, thank you.

Connecting the vinyl chain and CXN100 to the RCA and XLR inputs respectively on the 330A is a very tempting option. Anyone else can confirm this is safe when only one of the inputs would be powered on at once?

The CXN100 actually has both balanced XLR out and single-ended RCA, so I can choose which one to use. But the crux is still that I want to retain the remote volume control of the CXN100 provided services (Tidal streaming and TV duties).