Trying to understand the turntable/vinyl world...

[kongwee]

I have to chance to setup and play and don't one it. On the right.

Better than $40,000 CD transport and DAC. Now come and bite me!

 

[MattHooper]

Collecting interests probably merit a whole new thread, as it's a complex topic and people collect for different reasons. Some collectors are doing it because they see it almost like a pension fund and are driven by value, but for others it's not about financial value. Some people are completists, others just like nice things, others have a genuine love of the things they collect, it's probably an infinite spectrum.

I collect brass model trains, some of them are very hard to find and some of them worth a few dollars (though nothing crazy and by the standards of audiophile turntables it's probably quite a cheap hobby) but the reason I collect them is part love of the prototype trains (real life), part that I'm a bit of a model nut job and make a lot of kits (at one time I did model engineering when I was at sea and spent time off watch in the workshop), partly a love of the detail and finish of good brass models and partly well I just like them. I also love classic film cameras, old mechanical SLRs and range finders and maybe when the kids fly the nest I may end up indulging my love of those.

A while ago I bought the DG re-release of the Bernstein/VPO Beethoven cycle, the deluxe CD set in book style packaging and with a high-res bluray disc. It was a bit of an indulgence but it's a Beethoven cycle I love and I thought it'd be nice to have a nice set. A friend bought the vinyl re-issue DG did around the same time which cost $$$$$$$$s and just listens to the digital download included with the set (it came with a download code) and admits he has no intention of ever playing the records. Some would call him crazy, maybe he is but it gives him pleasure and I can think of much worse things to spend money on. Another friend spends $$$$$$$s on vinyl LP limited editions of Doctor Who audio productions of all things, he just spent about £190 on some Tom Baker adventure on vinyl. Again he say's he will never ever play the LPs as he has them all as download copies, but as a Doctor Who fanatic he wants the LPs for the sleeve art and tactile feel of having a physical copy. I understand that even if it's not my thing.

Excellent comment. Great points.

I admit I've spent some "stupid money" on certain LPs. Usually these have been "Library" or "Production" music from the 70's, a genre that was sort of cult for a long while but has become a massive sub-genre. This is pre-produced music, written on spec by many talented but unknown artists back then. Film, television, commercials and industrial video producers could purchase this music- cheaper than hiring a composer to do an original score. So if you were making a Mystery show or movie, you could look up the albums of mystery music, or dective music, or "optimistic industrial" music, or sports music...literally any feeling or genre you can imagine and some you'd never have imagined. Example would be Bruton Music, example of covers here:

Soft Illusions: The Bruton Music Library, 1977 – 1989

Alongside the industrial manufacture of popular music which characterised the second half of the twentieth century, another type of music aimed at a smaller group of consumers and offering another …

wearethemutants.com

There's plenty of schlock but among it some astoundingly vibrant, compelling and creative content. And just incredible amounts of this were produced around the world. Because it spans all genres of music, discovering Library music is like lifting a veil on an alternative music history of the late 20th Century that you never even knew existed.

The records were produced in very limited quantities (e.g. sometimes 50 copies or so) simply to send out to a production for samples.
Once the production decided on the specific tracks they wanted, they were sent that music on tape (so no record noise). Then usually the records were just thrown out. So you can imagine how rare some of this stuff is.

This is where the internet comes in so handy, especially discogs. So much of this music has been uploaded I can sample most albums before purchasing so I know I'm not getting a dog.

But since the genre took off, a big chunk of it has become released in digital (especially the fabulous KPM library). While lots of what I've bought is still unavailable digitally, I still prefer to buy the LP even if it's digitally available. For one thing I like the sound, but another is certainly an appreciation of the object - many of the covers are wonderful and zany creations, and just to be holding a record that is rare and has this type of history - some film editor in london england in the 70's circled X and Y tracks on the back of this album to be used in their movie etc...definitely adds to the pleasure. In that way I supposed I have a collection of LIbrary music.

 

[MattHooper]

BTW, any comments on this comparison?

Daft Punk – Random Access Memories – Review (LP , Qobuz, Tidal, Amazon, CD) updated with 10th anniversary extended edition (LP vinyl, Qobuz, Tidal Sony 360 RA, Apple Dolby Atmos)

Random Access Memories is the fourth and final album by Daft Punk, released in May 2013. This album received the Grammy Award for Best Album of the Year in 2014. It contains the famous track Get Lu…

magicvinyldigital.net

 

[EJ3]

BTW, any comments on this comparison?

Daft Punk – Random Access Memories – Review (LP , Qobuz, Tidal, Amazon, CD) updated with 10th anniversary extended edition (LP vinyl, Qobuz, Tidal Sony 360 RA, Apple Dolby Atmos)

Random Access Memories is the fourth and final album by Daft Punk, released in May 2013. This album received the Grammy Award for Best Album of the Year in 2014. It contains the famous track Get Lu…

magicvinyldigital.net

Make mine vinyl and use a DBX (or similar) to bring back the bass (hopefully)

 

[Frank Dernie]

Not sure if that is good or bad for the rest of us. The trend is people or groups of people buying up everything and reselling it at triple the price.

On the other hand the vinyl surge continues.

I can only speak for me!
I have a lot of LPs already and won't buy any more but the increase in "value" matters little either since I don't intenf to sell any.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have to chance to setup and play and don't one it. On the right.

Better than $40,000 CD transport and DAC. Now come and bite me!

A parallel tracking arm removes tracking error, but creates other problems, depending on the design.
The Rabco and Goldmund are the only older parallel trackers that don't have excessive lateral effective mass, ones like the one in the picture do so the lateral (which is where the L+R information is, so the most important) frequency response is compromised. The vertical (stereo difference information) can be OK but that isn't much good since having a different FR on mono and difference channels creates an uncorrectable fault in the frequency response.

The only current parallel tracker I know which addresses this problem is this one.

Having a short arm also generates audible warp wow so not much use for playing old collector recordings which are rarely flat because of how they have been stored for decades.

The second problem with surprisingly large number of turntables nowadays is a round section drive belt.
I learned it was bad engineering practice when I was an apprentice over 50 years ago. In fact I am suspicious of any turntable with a round section belt since I am concerned that if the designer is that ignorant or slapdash an engineer what else may be compromised?

That record player also seems to have no isolation so will add some extra reverb from the environment.

So overall that record player will have worse speed stability than it should, warp wow and a weird frequency response in the bass.

The extra reverb can sound nice, but depends.

Overall that TT will have a worse frequency response and more distortion and noise than an inexpensive CD transport and DAC.

The only thing it is better at is wallet emptying and, if you like it, a pretty object in the room.

I have 4 record players. All of them sound different but all of them will be better than the one in your picture. Only one costs more money though.

 

[kongwee]

Overall that TT will have a worse frequency response and more distortion and noise than an inexpensive CD transport and DAC.

Yes, vinyl should be legally banned.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Yes, vinyl should be legally banned.

Don't be stupid.

There is no reason to ban it, I have been enjoying it for 60 years.

What is advisable though is to dispel any notion that it is in any way a superior method of reproducing sound accurately

It is worse than the reel-to-reel tape from which it will have been mixed and the reel to reel isn't as accurate a recording or replay medium as 16/48 digital IME of over 50 years recording.

In summary I do not take issue with anybody for liking the sound they get from LPs I do myself.
What is stupid is any notion it is in any way technically superior. In order to believe that a deep case of technical hard-of-understanding is required.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

Don't be stupid.

There is no reason to ban it, I have been enjoying it for 60 years.

What is advisable though is to dispel any notion that it is in any way a superior method of reproducing sound accurately

It is worse than the reel-to-reel tape from which it will have been mixed and the reel to reel isn't as accurate a recording or replay medium as 16/48 digital IME of over 50 years recording.

In summary I do not take issue with anybody for liking the sound they get from LPs I do myself.
What is stupid is any notion it is in any way technically superior. In order to believe that a deep case of technical hard-of-understanding is required.

Well said. Vinyl still makes me smile after all these years, and also still amazes me how good it can sound, against all odds.

Perfect or better? No of course not… But for me it’s satisfying in a way that I just can’t quite put my finger on. Maybe it’s the work I put into trying to garnish the best sound, maybe it’s some of the decks that I have that look like pieces of art (to me anyway). I posted this before but just the other day, but my wife came into my music room recently pointed at my table and said… “is that what’s playin?”

I simply said yes it is, but on the inside I admit I was gloating.

At any rate, my tables are not going anywhere.

 

[EJ3]

I can only speak for me!
I have a lot of LPs already and won't buy any more but the increase in "value" matters little either since I don't intenf to sell any.

I still buy more (but only occasionally). No intent to sell anything to do with my gear or media.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

To add to my post, I think the resurgence in vinyl the past XX amount of years is also partially due to the fact that people realize that they like interacting with their music more. A CD gets a lackluster interaction score with me, and trying to dig the lyric sheet, or song list out of a CD always drove me bananas. I could go on, but I’ll basically state that vinyl allows me to be more intimate with my music, there’s a better connection, and those of us that are into it… just get that. So in two short paragraphs those are my reasons for staying involved with vinyl.

 

[BDWoody]

A parallel tracking arm removes tracking error, but creates other problems, depending on the design.
The Rabco and Goldmund are the only older parallel trackers that don't have excessive lateral effective mass...

I was going to ask what you thought of the older technics linear tracking tables, but then remembered the story of you tossing your SL-15 into a dumpster, so I guess I have my answer.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

I was going to ask what you thought of the older technics linear tracking tables, but then remembered the story of you tossing your SL-15 into a dumpster, so I guess I have my answer.

I just had a Bang &Olufsen 8002 rebuilt, call me crazy but it sounds very good to me, and also looks beautiful.

 

[Newman]

Vinyl still makes me smile after all these years, and also still amazes me how good it can sound, against all odds.

Perfect or better? No of course not…

Yes, vinyl bias is the epitome of bias and generates enough Newspeak to make Orwell proud. Literally, saying worse is better.

I was going to ask what you thought of the older technics linear tracking tables, but then remembered the story of you tossing your SL-15 into a dumpster, so I guess I have my answer.

Fear not, LT rules. Of course bad LT is bad, gee wiz what a surprise. But its "inherent" weaknesses are much overstated and good ones are the best arms available for what an arm is meant to do.

 

[dlaloum]

A parallel tracking arm removes tracking error, but creates other problems, depending on the design.
The Rabco and Goldmund are the only older parallel trackers that don't have excessive lateral effective mass, ones like the one in the picture do so the lateral (which is where the L+R information is, so the most important) frequency response is compromised. The vertical (stereo difference information) can be OK but that isn't much good since having a different FR on mono and difference channels creates an uncorrectable fault in the frequency response.

The only current parallel tracker I know which addresses this problem is this one.

Having a short arm also generates audible warp wow so not much use for playing old collector recordings which are rarely flat because of how they have been stored for decades.

There were other solutions to linear tracking - my own Revox table has servo tracking of the arm - so no lateral force - the arm itself is a unipivot - where the unipivot is transported across the surface of the record by a lateral tracking servo mechanism.

Having a VERY short arm (2.5" / 6cm ), it does have the potential of issues from warped records (TT's are always a balancing act of competing imperatives!) - however in my experience, I have not noted audible WoW - and have found the Linatrack to be a superb tracker of warped records, it is in fact one of the aspects that this design has been known for... (obviously when matched with an appropriate high compliance cartridge!)

 

[Deleted member 43441]

Yes, vinyl bias is the epitome of bias and generates enough Newspeak to make Huxley proud. Literally, saying worse is better.


Fear not, LT rules. Of course bad LT is bad, gee wiz what a surprise. But its "inherent" weaknesses are much overstated and good ones are the best arms available for what an arm is meant to do.

That’s my point, I’m under no illusion that it’s superior, just the interaction with the music is superior… for me anyway.

I also understand if people don’t get it, but they also need to understand that I do get it.

 

[Newman]

BTW, any comments on this comparison?

Daft Punk – Random Access Memories – Review (LP , Qobuz, Tidal, Amazon, CD) updated with 10th anniversary extended edition (LP vinyl, Qobuz, Tidal Sony 360 RA, Apple Dolby Atmos)

Random Access Memories is the fourth and final album by Daft Punk, released in May 2013. This album received the Grammy Award for Best Album of the Year in 2014. It contains the famous track Get Lu…

magicvinyldigital.net

Are you asking me to be honest in a vinyl thread? Isn't there a rule?

It's nothing more than yet another site that totally over-relies on, and totally mis-uses, the TTDR tool. Who doesn't know by now that the tool cannot be used to compare vinyl with digital? It has enough failings when used for digital vs digital, too (too easy to change the number during production without changing the DR of the content itself).

So the DR differences are nonsense....and yet...do you notice how the subjective commentary follows precisely the measured DR numbers, however wrong they be? It's like mass hypnosis.

cheers

 

[EJ3]

I just had a Bang &Olufsen 8002 rebuilt, call me crazy but it sounds very good to me, and also looks beautiful.

I resemble that remark. Actually wonderful.

I have a DUAL 1229 that was rebuilt (with a new plinth & lid) for my pivoting arm TT & a TECHNICS SL-M3 for my linear tracker.

I have only a few (3 each) SHURE cartridges that have Beryllium cantilevers for them (and several NOS replacement styluses & also a few JICO styluses). These stuff is my end game for vinyl.

The only other TT I ever owned was a Connoisseur with a GRACE tone arm.

I never got into the "collect 200 hundred of the same yet different" things mentality. Although, if I buy something and like it, I try to get another identical one.

 

[Deleted member 43441]

I resemble that remark. Actually wonderful.

I have a DUAL 1229 that was rebuilt (with a new plinth & lid) for my pivoting arm TT & a TECHNICS SL-M3 for my linear tracker.

I have only a few (3 each) SHURE cartridges that have Beryllium cantilevers for them (and several NOS replacement styluses & also a few JICO styluses). These stuff is my end game for vinyl.

The only other TT I ever owned was a Connoisseur with a GRACE tone arm.

I never got into the "collect 200 hundred of the same yet different" things mentality. Although, if I buy something and like it, I try to get another identical one.

That sounds very nice indeed. I don’t know how long you’ve been into this, but as someone that’s been into it for probably way too long LOL… stop the search right where you are, right while it’s still fun and doesn’t get to be into the unicorn chasing part of this. Of course I’m not trying to tell you what to do, and I have no idea about your history with vinyl. But I wish I had stopped at the Shure V15 with a Jico SAS, to get past that quality of sound is not inexpensive to say the least. Not that the combination is an end game sound quality wise, just that it’s very good and probably enough for most people. I have the V15 type V with an original styli for it that maybe has 20 hours on it, I also have two different SAS styli for it. It was an expensive lesson, but it’s very hard to beat that original stylus. If I’m not mistaken that was the only true all beryllium cantilever ever made, at least buy a mass produced cartridge company.

Audio Technica is also a company that gives a lot of bang for the buck, and some of their $500-$1000 range cartridges by all accounts are pretty amazing. One even sports a gold plated cantilever that is only found in one of those high dollar cartridges.

I guess my point is once you get past it, or want to go past that level, it gets expensive, but I never spend more than a reasonable amount on a cartridge.

 

[JP]

I have the V15 type V with an original styli for it that maybe has 20 hours on it, I also have two different SAS styli for it. It was an expensive lesson, but it’s very hard to beat that original stylus.

The V with SAS is a particularly poor combo if you're after flat.