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Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

srkbear

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No it is not, cause it is not a setting you can mess up in software.
I2s is for sure a messed up hardware standard but probably cost 1 dollar to implement.
There are also players like "Volumio" that support i2s in a lot of DACs. Sadly not Topping.
I’m afraid the person you’re debating is cherry picking his own list of required elements for a DAC to meet his standards, and it’s clear that they all involve what the RME has that the Topping does not. And I find it notable that the majority of the features he’s prioritizing are largely outside of the domain of what a DAC is designed for—DSPs, EQs, preamp functions, etc.

Anyway, I’m coming in late in the game of this particular exchange so could you please explain? I definitely agree with your post but I’m missing some pieces—specifically what Topping is not supporting in regards to I2S?
 

srkbear

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Just another nice way to verify bit perfect transport between PC and DAC. I use Foobar and WASAPI and I can get the bit depth in Foobar, but would like to verify it is untouched at the DAC.
I getcha, although I can’t imagine what would prompt such a DD conversion occurring with the Topping.

The good news is even if the bit depth were altered in any way, in the digital domain it shouldn’t have any effect on the analog output. Some folks have wondered whether converting 16 bit files into 24 bits would improve the sound, and although the math is complex such a conversion leads to the same exact result at the DA stage. There’s a lengthy discussion of this on JRiver (my apologies if I misread your intent in bringing this up)…
 

srkbear

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I2S input is good example of such unnecessary extra... Much less useful for general consumer market than direct mode.
While admitting that I’m not entirely clear on how you’re using these terms, I’m not sure that the consumer market and pro market for DACs are all that divergent anymore. Again, DAC technology has exponentially progressed over the last two years, and it’s becoming increasingly unjustified to spend high dollar for a DAC for any implementation anymore.

We’ve seen a slew of reviews on here of late demonstrating one after the other of “perfect” performing DACs, with nuances in measurements that are out of the range of human hearing. I’ve seen plenty of folks trading in their $10,000 DACs of days old for one of Amir’s top ten. The flagship price point has simply dropped as technology has brought professional grade DA converters to the masses, and this makes sense—the emergence of so many affordable lossless streaming services has made audiophile-grade sound a more universal consumer demand.

This is really what all of my posts have been referring to from the beginning, before things got sidetracked into this RME battle. The advances of just the past 6 months have called into question the adage of “you get what you pay for” when it comes to DACs. And I think a new form of snake oil has become charging DAC consumers outlandish amounts for “prestige” names like PS Audio, Chord or Schiit’s “premium” tier, who make all kinds of arcane claims about their fancy architecture or circuitry, without any evidence to justify the cost. The evidence suggests that the less costly DACs actually measure better.

In regards to the more esoteric features contained in the architecture of “boutique” DACs, especially those in the R2R ladder category, I’m also suggesting the possibility that many of the hallowed design choices of the past, that were allegedly innovated to circumvent the limitations of the DA process in their day, may no longer be necessary or even advantageous anymore. And with that I’ll give this a rest.
 
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mudy

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I’ve thought about that too, but I’m afraid it isn’t an option on the Topping, and I’ve rarely seen it on other DACs either. I’ve resorted to getting this metadata from Roon myself…
L&P W2 does that.
 

DHT 845

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There are also players like "Volumio" that support i2s in a lot of DACs. Sadly not Topping.
Volumio primo has only hdmi out, no I2S.
Whereas toppings (like d70s, d90se) have I2S, perfect working via hdmi socket.
 

nikosidis

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What are you talking about? There is nothing wrong with the I2S input on either of the Topping DACs (D90 and D90SE) that I own. Did you set the related options correctly?
I have not tried it :) I just look at the supported hardware list from Volumio. I guess I have to try it then.
 

srkbear

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I have not tried it :) I just look at the supported hardware list from Volumio. I guess I have to try it then.
The iFi Zen Stream is an example of a Volumio-based streamer, designed on a microcomputer platform (similar to a Raspberry Pi), and its only outputs are USB and coaxial S/PDIF.

I love this unit—iFi built their noise isolation circuitry into both outputs, and although it doesn’t have a hardware GUI (and like every Volumio-based device its software GUI is lacking), it has a built-in Roon bridge and a switch to turn off all of non-essential software functions and hardware circuitry to function solely as a Roon bridge.

Some folks have complained that the ZS isn’t a Roon endpoint itself, but they misunderstand what a Roon bridge is for. As a bridge, it can turn any attached DAC into a Roon endpoint. When my Topping is connected to the Zen Stream, Roon automatically detects all of its settings with perfect accuracy (maximum sampling frequency, bit depth, MQA capabilities, etc). What shows up in Roon as a Roon-ready endpoint is my Topping D90se, with the ZS hosting it.

The only thing I use the I2S input on my D90se for is to connect my Sony UBP-x1000SE SACD player to it (or my Oppo UDP-203) via an HDMI to I2S de-embedder I purchased on eBay. The Topping menu allows me to reverse the data pinouts to be compatible with the extractor (it also allows you to change the DSD flag pin from 14 to 15 if necessary), and with this setup I can play SACDs at a 176.4 PCM sampling frequency through the DAC. It also upscales my 44.1 Redbook CDs to 88.2 kHz.

I think it sounds outstanding, and it’s a nice companion to the USB input I use to access my Roon library via the Zen Stream. I’m actually pleased with the I2S pinout adjustments the D90se offers—new Gustard x18 has an I2S input, but offers no compatibility adjustments at all. I was surprised.
 
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srkbear

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L&P W2 does that.
Good to know. Wish more DACs offered it, although for me it would only function for curiosity’s sake really. I know the bit depth for most of my library, and I can’t think of a scenario where the DAC would get it wrong or change it. Can you?
 

Miska

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The iFi Zen Stream is an example of a Volumio-based streamer, designed on a Raspberry Pi platform, and its only outputs are USB and coaxial S/PDIF.

Small correction, it is not based on Raspberry Pi.

I love this unit—iFi built their noise isolation circuitry into both outputs, and although it doesn’t have a hardware GUI (and like every Volumio-based device its software GUI is lacking), it has a built-in Roon bridge and a switch to turn off all of non-essential software functions and hardware circuitry to function solely as a Roon bridge.

Yes, it is a nice unit, it has my NAA software module and I run it in NAA exclusive mode, at the moment feeding Topping E30 DAC at DSD256 (everything is upsampled to DSD256) in DSD Direct mode. Of course if I want to use Roon, it just uses my player as playback engine and operates just as a GUI front-end. But most of the time I don't use Roon, but instead play just Qobuz and HRA Streaming natively.

It also upscales my 44.1 Redbook CDs to 88.2 kHz.

So you are doing digital filters outside of the box! Why stop at 88.2k and not do all the oversampling and delta-sigma modulation outside of the box?
 

srkbear

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Small correction, it is not based on Raspberry Pi.



Yes, it is a nice unit, it has my NAA software module and I run it in NAA exclusive mode, at the moment feeding Topping E30 DAC at DSD256 (everything is upsampled to DSD256) in DSD Direct mode. Of course if I want to use Roon, it just uses my player as playback engine and operates just as a GUI front-end. But most of the time I don't use Roon, but instead play just Qobuz and HRA Streaming natively.



So you are doing digital filters outside of the box! Why stop at 88.2k and not do all the oversampling and delta-sigma modulation outside of the box?
I meant that its microcomputer-based similar to the Raspberry Pi homemade audio hats.

And it’s my Sony UBP-x1000ES that upscales the CDs with its DSEE Extreme function. I auditioned the Sony compared with my Oppo UDP-203 that does not offer this feature, and I subjectively preferred the results.

You’re really becoming tiresome in your efforts to outsmart folks on this forum. Kindly contribute your views, knowledge and preferences with a little less schadenfreude—I’m interested in what you have to say but I’m becoming exhausted by the one-upmanship tactics and lack of data to support your positions. Thank you.
 
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Miska

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I meant that its microcomputer-based similar to the Raspberry Pi homemade audio hats.

Typical ARM-based SoM on a purpose built carrier board.

You said:
designed on a Raspberry Pi platform

And it’s my Sony UBP-x1000ES that upscales the CDs with its DSEE Extreme function. I auditioned the Sony compared with my Oppo UDP-203 that does not offer this feature, and I subjectively preferred the results.

So you are getting the idea of doing this outside of the box, but like to argue that there's no reason to do this and that consumers don't need this?

And you still prefer to argue that I'm somehow stupid doing similar thing, but to higher rates?

and lack of data to support your positions.

And the data you have provided to support your positions?
 

srkbear

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Typical ARM-based SoM on a purpose built carrier board.

You said:




So you are getting the idea of doing this outside of the box, but like to argue that there's no reason to do this and that consumers don't need this?

And you still prefer to argue that I'm somehow stupid doing similar thing, but to higher rates?



And the data you have provided to support your positions?
I have no idea what you’re talking about. When did I say that users have no need to upsample or apply DSP functions? Didn’t I say I use Roon to do this? My argument from the beginning is that there is no evidence that the RME is a better DAC in terms of performing the functions a DAC is expected to. I didn’t say that all the features on the RME were worthless, that’s ridiculous!

I’m using Amir’s measurements as my data to back up my positions. You’re just saying the RME is a better DAC because you say so.

I don’t think you’re paying attention to my position during this discussion; you’re just cherry picking minutia from my posts that you can discredit on your own terms. I’m going to choose to be wrong and happy here and let you carry on this battle on your own. The Topping can’t hold a candle to the almighty RME, ok? You win, I’m out.
 

nikosidis

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Volumio primo has only hdmi out, no I2S.
Whereas toppings (like d70s, d90se) have I2S, perfect working via hdmi socket.

While admitting that I’m not entirely clear on how you’re using these terms, I’m not sure that the consumer market and pro market for DACs are all that divergent anymore. Again, DAC technology has exponentially progressed over the last two years, and it’s becoming increasingly unjustified to spend high dollar for a DAC for any implementation anymore.

We’ve seen a slew of reviews on here of late demonstrating one after the other of “perfect” performing DACs, with nuances in measurements that are out of the range of human hearing. I’ve seen plenty of folks trading in their $10,000 DACs of days old for one of Amir’s top ten. The flagship price point has simply dropped as technology has brought professional grade DA converters to the masses, and this makes sense—the emergence of so many affordable lossless streaming services has made audiophile-grade sound a more universal consumer demand.

This is really what all of my posts have been referring to from the beginning, before things got sidetracked into this RME battle. The advances of just the past 6 months have called into question the adage of “you get what you pay for” when it comes to DACs. And I think a new form of snake oil has become charging DAC consumers outlandish amounts for “prestige” names like PS Audio, Chord or Schiit’s “premium” tier, who make all kinds of arcane claims about their fancy architecture or circuitry, without any evidence to justify the cost. The evidence suggests that the less costly DACs actually measure better.

I’m just suggesting the possibility that many of the stalwart design choices of the past that were innovated to circumvent the limitations of the DA process may no longer be optimal or valid anymore. And with that I’ll give this a rest.
Chord and PS audio use FPGA solutions that at least got some engineering behind it.
I have no idea what you’re talking about. When did I say that users have no need to upsample or apply DSP functions? Didn’t I say I use Roon to do this? My argument from the beginning is that there is no evidence that the RME is a better DAC in terms of performing the functions a DAC is expected to. I didn’t say that all the features on the RME were worthless, that’s ridiculous!

I’m using Amir’s measurements as my data to back up my positions. You’re just saying the RME is a better DAC because you say so.

I don’t think you’re paying attention to my position during this discussion; you’re just cherry picking minutia from my posts that you can discredit on your own terms. I’m going to choose to be wrong and happy here and let you carry on this battle on your own. The Topping can’t hold a candle to the almighty RME, ok? You win, I’m out.
I have to agree. There is simply nothing more than a opinion. There is nothing in the measurements that say so.
I asked if possible to hear difference from dsd to 16/44.1 and Miska said he can.
As long as the conversion is done right I doubt you can.
At least I have not seen any blind test where people can hear difference from CD quality to no matter bit, sampling rate.
 
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C. Cook

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May have missed it in all the comments, but does anyone know the difference between the D90 and D90SE off the top of their heads? I thought the original D90 also used the ESS 9038PRO, but Amir's writeup kind of implies that the original used an AKM chip?
 

srkbear

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May have missed it in all the comments, but does anyone know the difference between the D90 and D90SE off the top of their heads? I thought the original D90 also used the ESS 9038PRO, but Amir's writeup kind of implies that the original used an AKM chip?
The original was an AK4499-based unit, yes. The d90se is a refresh of the original with a full 8 channel implementation of the ES9038pro due to the AKM fire, and from Amir’s measurements Topping managed to improve on what was already a fine DAC.
 

Jimbob54

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May have missed it in all the comments, but does anyone know the difference between the D90 and D90SE off the top of their heads? I thought the original D90 also used the ESS 9038PRO, but Amir's writeup kind of implies that the original used an AKM chip?
Exactly that. AKM fire means they have to build around the ESS and (IIRC) other tweaks not necessarily purely for different DAC chip accommodation. Call it the SE to distinguish. Similar story for the RME ADI 2 DAC except they didnt make the chip swap/ model revision as obvious (serial number format change rather than change to product name/ number)
 

Music1969

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Nobody is liking your posts, sir.
This is absurd and childish
I’m becoming exhausted by the one-upmanship tactics and lack of data to support your positions.
Then just ignore him and stop engaging. Very simple solution.

One person whinging shouldn't stop Miska posting here. I enjoy his posts even those I may disagree with.

Please just stop the whinging
 
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