Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

[Klotz]

This is a well-known limitation of the Topping due to its use of a cs8416 S/PDIF receiver. It’s an unavoidable hardware limitation that can’t be mitigated by firmware upgrades.

However, if you’re primarily experiencing this with your TV or Blu Ray player connections, you can buy a Kanex Pro HAECOAX HDMI audio extractor and work around the issue with no limitations (Amazon link below). You connect the HAECOAX to the audio HDMI output from your TV or player, then run either coax or optical out of the HAECOAX to the Topping and the dropouts will cease. I have this solution in my setup and it works flawlessly, at a very minimal cost.

Well, yes, thank you, but no. I already have 8 different devices plugged to the power behind my audio rack and I definetely want to avoid adding another one.

I know this is an audio forum, but after over 100 pages of wows over this dac there are very little info regarding the crucial failure of optical and coaxial inputs!

I really want to warn everyone who wants to use this dac with optical input, especially with tv as a source. Those dropouts disqualify this dac to me completely.

Now, after 3 months of use, I am not only annoyed but angry as hell.
It is impossible to watch tv with this dac. I am embarassed when I invite some guests to watch live sports on tv and droputs are like every 20-40-50 seconds. And those questions "why/what is that, what's wrong?"
Maybe JohnYang1997 would tell ME what should I do now with my dac now? Somehow he buried his head in the sand after first info about dropouts here.

 

[Roland68]

Well, yes, thank you, but no. I already have 8 different devices plugged to the power behind my audio rack and I definetely want to avoid adding another one.

I know this is an audio forum, but after over 100 pages of wows over this dac there are very little info regarding the crucial failure of optical and coaxial inputs!

I really want to warn everyone who wants to use this dac with optical input, especially with tv as a source. Those dropouts disqualify this dac to me completely.

Now, after 3 months of use, I am not only annoyed but angry as hell.
It is impossible to watch tv with this dac. I am embarassed when I invite some guests to watch live sports on tv and droputs are like every 20-40-50 seconds. And those questions "why/what is that, what's wrong?"
Maybe JohnYang1997 would tell ME what should I do now with my dac now? Somehow he buried his head in the sand after first info about dropouts here.

The question is how many of the problems with SPDIF (or optical/Toslink) are really due to the D90SE and the CS8416 used.

Basically, many problems with dropouts (especially with televisions, but also many other sources) are known with optical/Toslink and SPDIF/Coax connections. This can be traced back over 15 years and has nothing to do with the device or components mentioned.

Since AKM (and chips like AK4118, AK4114, etc.) have been phased out, manufacturers have of course had to switch to other components. The CS8416 has been used in many devices for more than 10 years, but it is known to cause problems if the data stream is faulty.

Perhaps the owners of a D90SE or a device with the CS8416 chip affected by the problem can check the following sources of problems:
- The cable for SPDIF has 75 ohms characteristic impedance and the function is perfect.
- cable is not too long (tests best with 75 - 100cm)
- Signal strength from the source device is sufficient
- The signal is output from the source device according to standard PCM and unmanipulated/unmodified (no volume control, no balance, no surround sound options, no automatic volume adjustment, no enhancement algorithms, etc.)

There are 2 fundamental problems with televisions in particular:
1. With everything focused on HDMI, there are often savings on other connectors (regardless of the price of the TV), sometimes just pennies on a transformer or capacitor.
2. Often the most stupid functions affect different connections (also SPDIF/Toslink), e.g. some functions for volume, sound, data output, sound enhancement functions (sometimes also included in those for the picture), etc.

Addendum: I had just read that a user with an HDMI audio extractor passed the audio signal on to the SPDIF input of the D90SE and no longer had any problems.
That also points to a problem with the source devices.

 

[Rottmannash]

I have the RME ADI-2 DAC FS. It's crystal clear clarity, EQ capability, Loudness feature, visual FR screen and headphone amp make it a gem among DAC's.

I read the glowing review of the D90SE and wanted to try it. I setup the Topping D90SE in an AB test with the ADI-2 and not only were all the great RME features gone but the Topping remote is absolutely awful. If you're 12 feet away from the D90SE you better pay attention when trying to change the volume because it requires a laser focus on the DAC. Not so with the ADI-2 remote. No loudness feature on the remote - it doesn't exist with D90SE same with EQ. I also found the ADI-2 offered more clarity in my setup and offers higher gain while running cool. While the clarity claim will not be believed by some - I kept switching back and forth between the DACs and easily preferred the ADI-2 for my taste. In addition, I have never experienced audio drop-outs with the optical input on the ADI-2 unlike the many reports of optical issues with the D90SE.

After testing these two, I don't see the D90SE as a serious competitor to the RME ADI-2. In my opinion, the D90SE isn't even in the same league. My guess is just about anyone whose used the RME ADI-2 features for a month and has them taken away and substituted with the D90SE will see it as a significant downgrade. If you have both it's a pretty easy choice.

Aren't they 2 different devices? D90SE DAC/pre only and RME DAC/HP amp/DSP/pre? Hardly an apples to apples comparison. I have the D90SE and the remote is almost unusable. Thankfully I hardly ever use it. I'd like to try the RME but don't have a use for it except for the EQ which would be nice so maybe someday. The RME is clearly a fantastic product, as there have been countless reviews of it and mentions of its attributes here on ASR over the years so no doubt it's a SOTA product.

 

[Rottmannash]

The question is how many of the problems with SPDIF (or optical/Toslink) are really due to the D90SE and the CS8416 used.

Basically, many problems with dropouts (especially with televisions, but also many other sources) are known with optical/Toslink and SPDIF/Coax connections. This can be traced back over 15 years and has nothing to do with the device or components mentioned.

Since AKM (and chips like AK4118, AK4114, etc.) have been phased out, manufacturers have of course had to switch to other components. The CS8416 has been used in many devices for more than 10 years, but it is known to cause problems if the data stream is faulty.

Perhaps the owners of a D90SE or a device with the CS8416 chip affected by the problem can check the following sources of problems:
- The cable for SPDIF has 75 ohms characteristic impedance and the function is perfect.
- cable is not too long (tests best with 75 - 100cm)
- Signal strength from the source device is sufficient
- The signal is output from the source device according to standard PCM and unmanipulated/unmodified (no volume control, no balance, no surround sound options, no automatic volume adjustment, no enhancement algorithms, etc.)

There are 2 fundamental problems with televisions in particular:
1. With everything focused on HDMI, there are often savings on other connectors (regardless of the price of the TV), sometimes just pennies on a transformer or capacitor.
2. Often the most stupid functions affect different connections (also SPDIF/Toslink), e.g. some functions for volume, sound, data output, sound enhancement functions (sometimes also included in those for the picture), etc.

I initially had issues with the C9 output via optical to the D90SE with pink noise, so not a drop-out. I believe I had the tv outputting bitstream so changing to PCM solved the problem. I never listen that way, as it's always via HDMI via RZ50 so haven't tried for several hours to see if drop-outs occurred but it that happens that's not OK on a $900 device.

 

[Eddy H.]

Well that certainly looks at first blush like one heck of an “apples vs oranges” challenge, right? Except that I think that the battle lines between R2R and delta sigma DACs are becoming increasingly blurred, in the era of full-eight channel ES9038pro implementations that obviate the ESS “hump” and score truly unprecedented numbers on SINAD, linearity and multi tone. So my question is, why spend more than what you did with the Topping?

I keep hearing folks speak in hushed tones about RME, Ares or Schiit DACs, while turning up their noses at offerings such as the D90se or the Gustard x18–and although I consider all three of the former manufacturers to be uncompromising in the quality of their builds, it’s hard to argue with the measurements of the Topping or the Gustard—and their builds are certainly nothing to grumble about either.

When I first got my Topping D90se, I did my own listening challenge with a Schiit Yggdrasil, primarily based on my disbelief at the time that a DAC as “cheap” as the Topping could measure up with the rest of my system—which cost a great deal more. And with full honesty, I could hardly hear a difference—certainly nothing to justify the outlandish cost of the Schiit in any imaginable way.

I know some folks gush about R2R DACs for their impeccable “sound signatures” and “grandeur”, but I think that’s a bunch of nonsense—as I’ve said elsewhere, I don’t think DACs need to provide such things in today’s market of discrete components, and I don’t ask them to. I get my grandeur, tonality and warmth from my tube amp and my headphones—and what I want from my DAC is detail retrieval, minimal distortion and a high SNR. And nobody is gonna tell me that any DAC is going to do that better than the Topping, at a fraction of the cost.

So why do some folks seem to get so mesmerized by the elite DACs of old that they feel such FOMO if they don’t hand over their wallets to the manufacturers still making them? Isn’t what they are doing its own form of snake oil?

Honestly I think quite a few purists seem to disdain Topping and Gustard for including MQA decoding capability—as if that little XMOS chip brought down the quality of its surrounding components somehow. Or maybe there’s something mysteriously old-school or more sophisticated about all those resistors and the outlandish cost involved with packing them into a chassis, I don’t know.

Even Gustard is continuing to command praise for eschewing op amps and doubling up their ESS chips and transformers in their x26 pro—but given that their newer x18 scores better and sounds arguably indistinguishable, why do those engineering choices continue to justify higher prices?

Maybe someone else can explain to me why RME, Ares and Schiit maintain such a foothold on the upper echelons of DAC respectability, to the extent that hard-working folks will pass on a great sounding, reasonably-priced DAC like the Topping D90se in favor of mortgaging their houses on a Denafrips or an ADI-2. Is it just because the prestige DACs are more esoterically suitable to being illuminated with a key light on a pedestal to display for their guests? Or do they truly offer something more?

The Ares2 cost me about 80$ less than the Topping. I believe that the D90se is probably the best delta sigma dac available but I can't believe the improvements the Denifrips has made in my system. All I can say is that I have a D90se that I let go for 700$ US if anyone is interested.

 

[Jimbob54]

The Ares2 cost me about 80$ less than the Topping. I believe that the D90se is probably the best delta sigma dac available but I can't believe the improvements the Denifrips has made in my system. All I can say is that I have a D90se that I let go for 700$ US if anyone is interested.

You know the question that is coming next so you may as well get in there first.

 

[Eddy H.]

You know the question that is coming next so you may as well get in there first.

No one on here will believe it until they hear it. I certainly didn't believe the hype either. I'm just glad I took a chance.

 

[amper42]

The Ares2 cost me about 80$ less than the Topping. I believe that the D90se is probably the best delta sigma dac available but I can't believe the improvements the Denifrips has made in my system. All I can say is that I have a D90se that I let go for 700$ US if anyone is interested.

Do you run the Ares II in Over Sample mode or do you prefer NOS? How would you describe the difference is sound compared to the D90SE? Where did you end up purchasing it? You have peaked my interest. Thanks!

 

[Eddy H.]

Do you run the Ares II in Over Sample mode or do you prefer NOS? How would you describe the difference is sound compared to the D90SE? Where did you end up purchasing it? You have peaked my interest. Thanks!

I prefer over sampling and the slow filter. The sound stage is from wall to wall and has alot of depth. I never realized how much digital glare delta sigma dacs had because that's all I've ever had. You don't realized it until it isn't there. The tonal neutrality is excellent. The bass is more solid. I ordered it from Vinshine audio. I know alot of people get worried about sending there money to China but I've never had any problems. I got my order in 5 days. It costs 890$, no taxes. Also keep in mind that this is Denifrips entry model being compared to Toppings flagship! I'm sure in the next week or two I'm going to order the Venice 2. IMO it'll probably be worth every penny. Keep in mind that I'm a crazy audiophile and I want the best that I can afford.

 

[amper42]

I prefer over sampling and the slow filter. The sound stage is from wall to wall and has alot of depth. I never realized how much digital glare delta sigma dacs had because that's all I've ever had. You don't realized it until it isn't there. The tonal neutrality is excellent. The bass is more solid. I ordered it from Vinshine audio. I know alot of people get worried about sending there money to China but I've never had any problems. I got my order in 5 days. It costs 890$, no taxes. Also keep in mind that this is Denifrips entry model being compared to Toppings flagship! I'm sure in the next week or two I'm going to order the Venice 2. IMO it'll probably be worth every penny. Keep in mind that I'm a crazy audiophile and I want the best that I can afford.

How did you install the Ares II in your audio chain? It looks like it has no volume control or remote so are you feeding the Ares II to a preamp or another DAC with a volume control? Thanks!

 

[Eddy H.]

How did you install the Ares II in your audio chain? It looks like it has no volume control or remote so are you feeding the Ares II to a preamp or another DAC with a volume control? Thanks!

I'm running it into my Pre90 with xlr.

 

[srkbear]

The Ares2 cost me about 80$ less than the Topping. I believe that the D90se is probably the best delta sigma dac available but I can't believe the improvements the Denifrips has made in my system. All I can say is that I have a D90se that I let go for 700$ US if anyone is interested.

I don’t doubt your experience, but I am still unsure about what the differences are. Are they practical differences or sonic differences? I understand that the Ares 2 and the RME have features that differ from the Topping (the remote being insignificant to me), but as I said before I have an amplifier that offers tonality and coloration adjustments. In terms of what the DAC alone is doing can you help me clarify why you think the Denafrips is better?

As an aside you did not mention that you were comparing the D90se plus the A90 to the Denafrips alone, which cost-wise is a totally different equation. I may have misunderstood the scope of your comparison (between a DAC + amp vs an integrated option) and went off from there.

Nevertheless I still question, purely based on the DAC alone, that highly costly R2R DACs offer any meaningful improvement over TODAY’s delta sigma DACs, although I’m open to input from others about it. I am teachable…

 

[srkbear]

You know the question that is coming next so you may as well get in there first.

And what question is that, since we’re going to be patronizing here?

 

[srkbear]

I have the RME ADI-2 DAC FS. It's crystal clear clarity, EQ capability, Loudness feature, visual FR screen and headphone amp make it a gem among DAC's.

I read the glowing review of the D90SE and wanted to try it. I setup the Topping D90SE in an AB test with the ADI-2 and not only were all the great RME features gone but the Topping remote is absolutely awful. If you're 12 feet away from the D90SE you better pay attention when trying to change the volume because it requires a laser focus on the DAC. Not so with the ADI-2 remote. No loudness feature on the remote - it doesn't exist with D90SE same with EQ. I also found the ADI-2 offered more clarity in my setup and offers higher gain while running cool. While the clarity claim will not be believed by some - I kept switching back and forth between the DACs and easily preferred the ADI-2 for my taste. In addition, I have never experienced audio drop-outs with the optical input on the ADI-2 unlike the many reports of optical issues with the D90SE.

After testing these two, I don't see the D90SE as a serious competitor to the RME ADI-2. In my opinion, the D90SE isn't even in the same league. My guess is just about anyone whose used the RME ADI-2 features for a month and has them taken away and substituted with the D90SE will see it as a significant downgrade. If you have both it's a pretty easy choice.

The D90se is indeed not comparable to an integrated DAC/AMP with built in EQ features. That wasn’t what I was proposing.

Regarding the remote, my system is on my nightstand and I never have to touch the remote on my Topping (I never have to change any settings on it except occasionally the input). I bought my DAC for the sound, and what sound signature adjustments my amplifier doesn’t offer (and it offers quite a bit) I get from Roon.

 

[staticV3]

And what question is that, since we’re going to be patronizing here?

"Which steps were taken to eliminate placebo/expectation bias while comparing the two DACs?" I imagine

 

[Jimbob54]

"Which steps were taken to eliminate placebo/expectation bias while comparing the two DACs?" I imagine

Got it in one. A member of over 6 months should have realised by now that simply stating large differences exist between 2 devices that measure well is a red rag to a bull for many members here unless some details of how the listening tests were controlled for output levels, knowing what device was playing and any other potentially confounding variables. Otherwise its just a story.

 

[Jimbob54]

I don’t doubt your experience, but I am still unsure about what the differences are. Are they practical differences or sonic differences? I understand that the Ares 2 and the RME have features that differ from the Topping (the remote being insignificant to me), but as I said before I have an amplifier that offers tonality and coloration adjustments. In terms of what the DAC alone is doing can you help me clarify why you think the Denafrips is better?

As an aside you did not mention that you were comparing the D90se plus the A90 to the Denafrips alone, which cost-wise is a totally different equation. I may have misunderstood the scope of your comparison (between a DAC + amp vs an integrated option) and went off from there.

Nevertheless I still question, purely based on the DAC alone, that highly costly R2R DACs offer any meaningful improvement over TODAY’s delta sigma DACs, although I’m open to input from others about it. I am teachable…

I think we have to assume the differences referenced were relating to the perceived sound, not form and function. And the question that then begs, is what controls were used when making that listening comparison. As anyone with over 6 months time here knows all too well.

 

[RosalieTheDog]

Well, yes, thank you, but no. I already have 8 different devices plugged to the power behind my audio rack and I definetely want to avoid adding another one.

I know this is an audio forum, but after over 100 pages of wows over this dac there are very little info regarding the crucial failure of optical and coaxial inputs!

I really want to warn everyone who wants to use this dac with optical input, especially with tv as a source. Those dropouts disqualify this dac to me completely.

Now, after 3 months of use, I am not only annoyed but angry as hell.
It is impossible to watch tv with this dac. I am embarassed when I invite some guests to watch live sports on tv and droputs are like every 20-40-50 seconds. And those questions "why/what is that, what's wrong?"
Maybe JohnYang1997 would tell ME what should I do now with my dac now? Somehow he buried his head in the sand after first info about dropouts here.

I can totally understand this is infuriating, and very odd it's not mentioned before, brushed off so easily ("a well known problem", as if it's your fault!) and then not picked up upon further in this thread (I guess this forum prefers ridiculing subjective tests and audiophile hypes to adressing functionality problems in their otherwise perfectly measuring devices). I hope you can get to the bottom of this.

 

[srkbear]

I think we have to assume the differences referenced were relating to the perceived sound, not form and function. And the question that then begs, is what controls were used when making that listening comparison. As anyone with over 6 months time here knows all too well.

Thank you. For some reason I thought I might be being sent up/castigated/excommunicated for suggesting that paying twice the dough for a “boutique” DAC, after Amir has demonstrated stellar measurements from a slew of reasonably priced DACs for quite a few months now, was an approach at least worthy of discussion. I’m still unclear on “how” the Denafrips outperformed the Topping.

Of course I own the Topping, so perhaps I have my own biases. But I thought it would be a better idea to invest my cash into my headphones and amplifier…

 

[Jimbob54]

Thank you. For some reason I thought I might be being sent up/castigated/excommunicated for suggesting that paying twice the dough for a “boutique” DAC, after Amir has demonstrated stellar measurements from a slew of reasonably priced DACs for quite a few months now, was an approach at least worthy of discussion. I’m still unclear on “how” the Denafrips outperformed the Topping.

Of course I own the Topping, so perhaps I have my own biases. But I thought it would be a better idea to invest my cash into my headphones and amplifier…

One thing for sure the difference in sound a few tweaks in EQ brings to headphones (or between different headphones) dwarfs any changes between dacs.