To upgrade or not to upgrade, that is the question.

[kongwee]

Do you mean Negative FeedBack? Generally I don't care about it. Listening is still important. I don't even remember brand with negative feedback. I know some tube amp does offer as an option.

The best option is to get home loan. You have people reject Benchmark too.

 

[voodooless]

I don't even remember brand with negative feedback.

Basically all amplifier feedback is negative feedback. Basically any well performing amp will use it.

 

[kongwee]

Basically all amplifier feedback is negative feedback. Basically any well performing amp will use it.

All? You can buy or DIY First Watt under Pass Lab. https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/power-amplifiers/mephisto-solo/
Oh, suddenly I remember.

 

[voodooless]

All? You can buy or DIY First Watt under Pass Lab. https://gryphon-audio.dk/shop/power-amplifiers/mephisto-solo/
Oh, suddenly I remember.

I said well performing… These objectively do not. Doesn’t mean you can’t like them. Preference != Performance

 

[kongwee]

I said well performing… These objectively do not. Doesn’t mean you can’t like them. Preference != Performance

Then you contradict with your first sentence. All mean every and any amplifier. You should said all well performing amplifier. That not my concern actually. There is non negative feedback audio amplifier selling around in the world. It is a fact.

 

[samsa]

No, he asked for the specific amplifier, not all class d amps

Except for that they do. In fact you can construct an equivalence model of a speaker with passive components:
View attachment 248329
If you want, you can make it more complex and simulate all kinds of box alignment as well.

Maybe not, but others have, as I linked. No magic to be found there. Damping factor predicts just fine what happens here. Sure it’s not a single number, but changes over frequency. So what?

Ah, so amps react better to back EMF without a mechanism for doing so?

Depending on how accurately you want to model the speaker, you may need to get considerably more complicated. The complex impedance of a speaker, Z(ω), is typically a rather complicated function of frequency. Your equivalent circuit has impedance Z(ω)= R₁+iL₁ +(iωC+1/iωL₂ +1/R₂)⁻¹. That gives a 5-parameter fit to the actual Z(ω).

 

[Beave]

Then you contradict with your first sentence. All mean every and any amplifier. You should said all well performing amplifier. That not my concern actually. There is non negative feedback audio amplifier selling around in the world. It is a fact.

No contradiction, just a problem with your reading comprehension.

 

[FeddyLost]

And there lies the question, if it's past audiable are you actually getting improvement in the sound by going even further past the audiable range or are you simply wasting money

Since you already have very competent amplifier and most probably not very problematic speakers, I'd say that the only way of checking if new alternative amp is better is direct comparison in your system.
I'd not bother until everything else in your system is as good as it gets and the amp is the only one possible weak point or you have great offer so you can spend no money on exchange.

 

[rwortman]

Well, billions of people experience all kinds of things that can’t all be true, so that isn’t really a convincing argument. Controlled testing shows a totally different story.

”Controlled testing” does not have perfect resolution and has certainly not tested every amp with every speaker. A test that shows that these N people cannot discern that between these 3 or 4 amplifiers driving these speakers with these test tracks doesn’t really prove that all amps with similar measurements will sound the same driving every speaker to everyone with any signal.

 

[voodooless]

”Controlled testing” does not have perfect resolution and has certainly not tested every amp with every speaker.

Enough to know that just judging an amp without any controls is a futile exercise in the vast majority of cases.

A test that shows that these N people cannot discern that between these 3 or 4 amplifiers driving these speakers with these test tracks doesn’t really prove that all amps with similar measurements will sound the same driving every speaker to everyone with any signal.

I never said they do. But neither are those millions proof of the opposite.

 

[ahofer]

There is more to the sound of an amplifier than those specifications you quoted. You really have to connect one to your speakers to know for sure. You might even find the class D amp an audible deterioration in sound quality.

Normally I direct this message to NEW members:

You've made an unsupported assertion or a scientifically implausible claim that will cause most people in this science-oriented forum to react with skepticism (or scepticism if they are in the U.K.). Please don't take the reactions as overtly hostile - most of us are just frustrated with the many newcomers who have clearly come here just to "troll". Please do engage with the membership to find an objective, controlled method to support or discard your hypothesis. Our membership includes recovering subjectivists, many engineers/scientists, and several famous figures in the world of audio engineering research. Generally, they can cite scientific, controlled research to support their views. Most believe in the fallibility of human sighted judgement, and think blind testing and measurements are critical ingredients for assessing equipment contributions to sound quality. We'd love to have you, but if all you want is a) to fight or b) to have others cheerlead for your subjective views or anecdotal evidence, I'd suggest you will be happier elsewhere.

 

[ahofer]

Thank your rwortman ,yes it's the only way to truely find out.

Argh. See my response to OP

You’ve made an unsupported assertion or a scientifically implausible claim that will cause most people in this science-oriented forum to react with skepticism (or scepticism if they are in the U.K.). Please don't take the reactions as overtly hostile - most of us are just frustrated with the many newcomers who have clearly come here just to "troll". Please do engage with the membership to find an objective, controlled method to support or discard your hypothesis. Our membership includes recovering subjectivists, many engineers/scientists, and several famous figures in the world of audio engineering research. Generally, they can cite scientific, controlled research to support their views. Most believe in the fallibility of human sighted judgement, and think blind testing and measurements are critical ingredients for assessing equipment contributions to sound quality. We'd love to have you, but if all you want is a) to fight or b) to have others cheerlead for your subjective views or anecdotal evidence, I'd suggest you will be happier elsewhere.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Normally I direct this message to NEW members:

Why do many members here seem to bristle at the thought that two amplifiers with excellent measurements placing their noise and distortion deep into the inaudible range may sound different from each other in the real world, when it is easy to see how the complex load of a loudspeaker affects some amplifier designs more than others and the resulting frequency responses can vary significantly?

 

[ahofer]

Why do many members here seem to bristle at the thought that two amplifiers with excellent measurements placing their noise and distortion deep into the inaudible range may sound different from each other in the real world, when it is easy to see how the complex load of a loudspeaker affects some amplifier designs more than others and the resulting frequency responses can vary significantly?

This isn’t bristling, that’s your interpretation.

The phenomenon of improperly designed amplifiers with transformers or impedance issues is true and widely discussed and acknowledged here. But your characterization is a bit of a “motte-and-bailey” fallacy, when the original claim (and yours) was, among other things:

A test that shows that these N people cannot discern that between these 3 or 4 amplifiers driving these speakers with these test tracks doesn’t really prove that all amps with similar measurements will sound the same driving every speaker to everyone with any signal.

two amplifiers with excellent measurements

”Similar measurements” or "excellent measurements" would include, I hope, output impedance and behavior under load as well as flat FR. So while the FR-altering boutique amp behavior is real, measurements can absolutely predict which amps might have that measurable *defect*. Nor is there a particular shortage of blind amplifier tests.

And the canned response is just fatigue at the same misguided challenge again and again and….

 

[Mr. Widget]

This isn’t bristling, that’s your interpretation.

The phenomenon of improperly designed amplifiers with transformers or impedance issues is true and widely discussed and acknowledged here. But your characterization is a bit of a “motte-and-bailey” fallacy, when the original claim was, among other things:


”Similar measurements” would include, I hope, output impedance and behavior under load. So while the boutique amp behavior is real, measurements can absolutely predict which ones will sound the same.

And the canned response is just fatigue at the same misguided challenge again and again and….

I do not disagree that most amplifiers sound very similar if not identical to most of us. However I do not think it requires an "improperly designed" amp for the amp to sound different.

My "interpretation" was that your reply to the reasonable quote from @rwortman was rather dismissive.

 

[ahofer]

I do not disagree that most amplifiers sound very similar if not identical to most of us. However I do not think it requires an "improperly designed" amp for the amp to sound different.

My "interpretation" was that your reply to the reasonable quote from @rwortman was rather dismissive.

I'll accept "dismissive" or even "really tired of this nonsense". I do/did dismiss the suggestion.

I would also disagree directly with your contention. In my view, an amplifier with non-linear frequency response, or one that will produce somewhat random FR variation under different and reasonable speaker loads, is even intentionally broken. For the simple reason that one's FR preferences can be very accurately encoded with EQ tools, which are amazing these days. Using amps for EQ is like trying to carve a turkey with a sledgehammer.

Similarly, I would be hard pressed to describe a speaker with ridiculous power requirements (e.g. the old Apogee models) as fit for service either.

One can want a broken or badly designed piece of equipment, but transparency and compatibility are standards to which I hold audio equipment.

I'll let others decide whether they agree or disagree with my view, but my bet is this is closer to ASR consensus.

 

[Timcognito]

Sometimes one wants to change to have something new, updated and modern. Probably with the OP's current amp specs there may not any major audible improvements. Think features, integration, tablet/phone control, connectivity (TV, WiFi, BT, streaming etc.), size, heat and reduction of clutter. Maybe something like this

Minidsp SHD Review Updated (DSP, DAC & Streamer)

This is an update to the review of minidsp SHD that I did a couple of years ago. My tests have evolved since then and company has stated that they fixed a few issues I found in that test. The SHD costs US $1,195 and includes a USB DAC, streaming engine (based on Volumio) and of course, DSP...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Mr. Widget]

I would also disagree directly with your contention. In my view, an amplifier with non-linear frequency response, or one that will produce somewhat random FR variation under different and reasonable speaker loads, is even intentionally broken. For the simple reason that one's FR preferences can be very accurately encoded with EQ tools, which are amazing these days. Using amps for EQ is like trying to carve a turkey with a sledgehammer.

As you know, typically the frequency response variations due to loading an amplifier with an actual speaker as compared to a simple resistor is fairly minimal, but it can be audible. In my opinion it does not require either the amplifier or speaker to be poorly designed to cause an audible frequency response deviation from flat.

I definitely agree with you that trying to equalize your system through your choices of nonlinear equipment performance is nuts, just a s people who try to "correct" their room or speakers through their choices in speaker cables.

... but transparency and compatibility are standards to which I hold audio equipment.

I couldn't agree with you more on this.

 

[rwortman]

BTW, I just checked a Stereophile amplifier review. Atkinson uses the simulated speaker load for a frequency response test to show the FR effect of the output impedance. He uses resistors for distortion tests as does every other review I’ve seen.

 

[rwortman]

Normally I direct this message to NEW members:

The notion that THD and SNR measured into a resistive load plus output impedance does not fully describe the performance of speaker amplifier is shared by many amplifier designers. It is possible that they are all either imagining things or simply lying to sell amps. It might also be that a lifetime spent building amplifiers has taught them some things. I’ve stayed longer on this forum than any other audio fora because believing in the patently ridiculous isn’t required. On the other hand the level of conformity of thought expected can be a bit stifling.

Almost everyone that’s been in this hobby a while (45 years) has had an amplification device that had good specs but after listening to it for months found something irritating about the sound. Replacing it with something else improved things. Yes, it might be explained by FR but not if a single damping factor number is all that matters. It might also be that the distortion profile was different driving a speaker than when heating a resistor. It might also be that the manufacturer was lying about the specs.

The man asked for an opinion. Will a new low measured distortion Class D amp improve my system? My opinion is maybe yes, maybe no, might make it worse. Try one and see. If that’s not an allowable answer, ban me.