Tidal CEO: We're introducing Hi-Res FLAC for HiFi Plus Subscribers

[brandonhall]

The Tidal CEO did an AMA at Reddit today and he announced they are introducing hi-res FLAC for HiFi Plus subscribers.

 

[voodooless]

He also mentioned they have no plans to acquire MQA.

 

[symphara]

It's not clear to me how Tidal can survive selling the same stuff as the competition for twice the fee, once MQA is gone.

 

[Bernd]

He also mentioned they have no plans to acquire MQA.

This is the last nail in the coffin for MQA.....finally and deservedly. Who would be so stupid to invest in an expensive compression algorithm that is expensive and inferior to FLAC which is free. Quobuz has been surviving on FLAC for a while now. Tidal and Quobuz are in direct competition now, and the outcome will depend on the size of the catalogue, sound quality and the ability to develop a user-friendly 'connect' feature similar to that of Spotify.

 

[Keith_W]

the ability to develop a user-friendly 'connect' feature similar to that of Spotify.

This. I do not understand why none of the streaming companies are able to cast to PC except Spotify. With Tidal and Qobuz, the only way to cast to PC is to use third party software, e.g. Roon, Audirvana, and via DLNA. I am using BubbleUPNP, but it's interface is rather ugly and I would much rather use Tidal's own app. I don't want to use Roon (too expensive) or Audirvana (subscription model) so for me it's either BubbleUPNP or mConnect.

 

[Galliardist]

The Tidal CEO did an AMA at Reddit today and he announced they are introducing hi-res FLAC for HiFi Plus subscribers.

Interesting, and I bet they also will be pushing their lower tiers aggressively in the next few weeks as well, since there is a lot of upset over Spotify's latest app changes and talk of users heading elsewhere. After all, a lot of Spotify's user base are disgruntled Apple refugees who left at times when Apple tried to dump a lot of extras into iTunes then switched to Apple Music. And Apple are slowly getting their act together in Windows now.

I wasn't aware of Tidal Connect not working to PC, it does work to a lot of streaming devices, and I guess if they could get it to PC soon they may get customers out of it. They seem to be too busy with making their own PC app work slower and slower every update (that's what I see anyway on my desktop).

My guess is that MQA isn't going to disappear on TIdal anytime soon, but that could change if someone aggressive buys MQA and tries to make it break even by increasing fees.

The next weeks could see a lot of change in the streaming market.

 

[LouB]

This. I do not understand why none of the streaming companies are able to cast to PC except Spotify. With Tidal and Qobuz, the only way to cast to PC is to use third party software, e.g. Roon, Audirvana, and via DLNA. I am using BubbleUPNP, but it's interface is rather ugly and I would much rather use Tidal's own app. I don't want to use Roon (too expensive) or Audirvana (subscription model) so for me it's either BubbleUPNP or mConnect.

What does "cast" mean ? I use Qobuz on my PC & didn't realize it was 3rd party software. I don't have Roon, Audirvana & not sure on DLNA. The interface on my PC for Qobuz is pretty straight forward for searching, listening and building a library & playlists. I use the PC for this & the Yamaha musiccast app on my phone to play Qobuz through the Yamaha streamer. Some how the Yamaha musiccast app has access to all the playlists/library I saved on my PC. It's all seamless and simple & I never thought about how it works until now.

 

[Keith_W]

What does "cast" mean ? I use Qobuz on my PC & didn't realize it was 3rd party software. I don't have Roon, Audirvana & not sure on DLNA. The interface on my PC for Qobuz is pretty straight forward for searching, listening and building a library & playlists. I use the PC for this & the Yamaha musiccast app on my phone to play Qobuz through the Yamaha streamer. Some how the Yamaha musiccast app has access to all the playlists/library I saved on my PC. It's all seamless and simple & I never thought about how it works until now.

It means, you use your phone or tablet as a control point and you command your PC to play the track. This is especially important if you run an audio PC with no monitor or keyboard. For me, I have a monitor and keyboard attached to my PC, so it is only important for the couch potato aspects. Tidal, Qobuz, and the rest support all manner of strange hardware including garbage like Sonos (as if Sonos users care about high quality!) but not PC.

 

[LouB]

It means, you use your phone or tablet as a control point and you command your PC to play the track. This is especially important if you run an audio PC with no monitor or keyboard. For me, I have a monitor and keyboard attached to my PC, so it is only important for the couch potato aspects. Tidal, Qobuz, and the rest support all manner of strange hardware including garbage like Sonos (as if Sonos users care about high quality!) but not PC.

OK, thanks. I think I get it and if I understand it right it would only matter if your using your PC to stream the content. I'm guessing here but when using Qobuz & my Yamaha streamer app on my phone all the info. I dowloaded on my PC must be in the cloud ? And the Yamaha app has access to that info. I'm not familiar with Tidal or Sonos

 

[Keith_W]

Streamers work like this: you need 3 components. A control point, a server, and a renderer.

Control point: the part you interact with. This can be your computer, your phone, your tablet, Alexa, and so on.
Server: where the data is stored. This can be locally on your computer, on a NAS, or some remote location on the internet.
Renderer: where audio files in the form of MP3, FLAC, AAC, etc. are converted into PCM or DSD for output to your DAC.

These 3 components can be built together or they can be separated. For example, my PC does all 3 things (stores data on the HDD, JRiver as a control point, JRiver to convert FLAC to PCM). Or they can be separate (data on the internet, phone as your control point, Yamaha as renderer). Or any combination you choose, provided that the combination is supported by the software or your streaming service. With BubbleUPNP I could use my Android tablet as a server if I wanted to. But I can't use my Android tablet as a server for Sonos or your Yamaha because it probably isn't supported by software (I have no idea if this is true or not, because I haven't looked!).

Now, if you are going to stream something like Tidal (only using Tidal as an example), your control point has to be able to access Tidal's servers and request data to be sent. Roon has an agreement with Tidal, so Roon has "permission" to access Tidal's databases, present it to you with their interface, and stream it directly to the renderer. BubbleUPNP, mConnect, etc. do not have an agreement with Tidal. They get around it by using a web interface to log in to Tidal, so essentially Tidal thinks it is talking to a browser. BubbleUPNP and others have to build a new interface for every streaming service they want to support, which is why it is so frustratingly limited.

The ONLY streaming service that supports casting to PC is Spotify. Tidal users have been requesting this feature for years, and Tidal have not responded. At the moment I have to choose between streaming MP3's and being able to use a beautiful casting app (Spotify), or streaming FLAC's and being forced to use Roon or Audirvana (both of which are too expensive) or putting up with the ugly interface of BubbleUPNP.

 

[kemmler3D]

Who would be so stupid to invest in an expensive compression algorithm that is expensive and inferior to FLAC which is free.

This is what I wondered about MQA from the beginning. There was always a hi-res lossless format available, that required similar bandwidth. MQA was not even a solution in search of a problem, it was a problem in search of money.

TIDAL dropping it in favor of FLAC would be common sense finally coming home to roost.

 

[computer-audiophile]

MQA ... was a problem in search of money.

TIDAL dropping it in favor of FLAC would be common sense finally coming home to roost.

Good points!

 

[krabapple]

Streamers work like this: you need 3 components. A control point, a server, and a renderer.

Control point: the part you interact with. This can be your computer, your phone, your tablet, Alexa, and so on.
Server: where the data is stored. This can be locally on your computer, on a NAS, or some remote location on the internet.
Renderer: where audio files in the form of MP3, FLAC, AAC, etc. are converted into PCM or DSD for output to your DAC.

4th: connections? Internet for server to renderer. Wireless for control point and renderer
?

These 3 components can be built together or they can be separated. For example, my PC does all 3 things (stores data on the HDD, JRiver as a control point, JRiver to convert FLAC to PCM). Or they can be separate (data on the internet, phone as your control point, Yamaha as renderer). Or any combination you choose, provided that the combination is supported by the software or your streaming service. With BubbleUPNP I could use my Android tablet as a server if I wanted to. But I can't use my Android tablet as a server for Sonos or your Yamaha because it probably isn't supported by software (I have no idea if this is true or not, because I haven't looked!).

Now, if you are going to stream something like Tidal (only using Tidal as an example), your control point has to be able to access Tidal's servers and request data to be sent. Roon has an agreement with Tidal, so Roon has "permission" to access Tidal's databases, present it to you with their interface, and stream it directly to the renderer. BubbleUPNP, mConnect, etc. do not have an agreement with Tidal. They get around it by using a web interface to log in to Tidal, so essentially Tidal thinks it is talking to a browser. BubbleUPNP and others have to build a new interface for every streaming service they want to support, which is why it is so frustratingly limited.

The ONLY streaming service that supports casting to PC is Spotify. Tidal users have been requesting this feature for years, and Tidal have not responded. At the moment I have to choose between streaming MP3's and being able to use a beautiful casting app (Spotify), or streaming FLAC's and being forced to use Roon or Audirvana (both of which are too expensive) or putting up with the ugly interface of BubbleUPNP.

I'm still confused, are you casting the audio itself, routing it first from Tidal into your phone, then to the computer which sends to AVR,
or are you casting the commands to the computer to stream the audio from Tidal and send it to your AVR?

 

[BDWoody]

This is the last nail in the coffin for MQA...

Dear 8lb 6oz Baby Jesus,

Can you please help me figure out how to keep the glee and general discussion around the apparent demise of MQA from getting into every thread. Thank you, and I promise I'll be good from now on.
Amen

 

[Keith_W]

4th: connections? Internet for server to renderer. Wireless for control point and renderer

The connection does not matter, as long as hardware and software support it. It can be wi-fi, bluetooth, USB, ethernet ... anything capable of carrying a digital signal.

I'm still confused, are you casting the audio itself, routing it first from Tidal into your phone, then to the computer which sends to AVR,
or are you casting the commands to the computer to stream the audio from Tidal and send it to your AVR?

The control point sends commands to the server to send data to the renderer. Examples:

- Roon Control Point (on your phone or tablet) commands Tidal (server) to send audio to Roon endpoint (renderer), might be on your PC, or some other Roon supported hardware device
- BubbleUPNP (Control point on your phone) commands your NAS (server) to send audio to your PC (renderer)
- JRiver (control point on your PC) commands your HDD (server) to send audio to the renderer (JRiver)

Any control point can theoretically be used with any server and any renderer provided it has software support. After all, it's MP3, FLAC, AAC ... all industry standard stuff. Software support might be lacking for many reasons. Maybe the streaming company does not want to support a rival platform (e.g. Apple Music on Windows and Android). Maybe the streaming service is too small (e.g. Deezer and Idagio are unable to stream to many commercial streamers or work with BubbleUPNP). And sometimes it's just pig-headedness or laziness (e.g. Tidal can not be cast to a PC).

 

[recycle]

Intresting thread.
I would like to underline that any signal passing through bluetooth stops being lossless: it is encoded and compressed (lossy) to be more manageable. Anyone who pays a streaming platform to have 24bit flac and then listen to that music via bluetooth must know that they are not fully exploiting the file's potential. Recently a lossless bluetooth codec called AptX has been introduced, but it is not yet supported by any device.

 

[anotherhobby]

Intresting thread.
I would like to underline that any signal passing through bluetooth stops being lossless: it is encoded and compressed (lossy) to be more manageable. Anyone who pays a streaming platform to have 24bit flac and then listen to that music via bluetooth must know that they are not fully exploiting the file's potential. Recently a lossless bluetooth codec called AptX has been introduced, but it is not yet supported by any device.

Correct, except that AptX has been around for quite a while now and is supported on hundreds of devices... just not any Apple iOS devices. As an example my Sennheiser HD1 wireless headphones that I bought 4 years ago support AptX.

 

[Bernd]

Intresting thread.
I would like to underline that any signal passing through bluetooth stops being lossless: it is encoded and compressed (lossy) to be more manageable. Anyone who pays a streaming platform to have 24bit flac and then listen to that music via bluetooth must know that they are not fully exploiting the file's potential. Recently a lossless bluetooth codec called AptX has been introduced, but it is not yet supported by any device.

Correct, but let us not forget LDAC which has a transmission capacity of 96Khz, 24bit and a max bit rate of 990 kbps. As far as I know LDAC is allowed to carry the 'High-Res' label. There are quite a lot of devices that support LDAC and the protocol is considered super stable.

 

[doodlebro]

My favorite thing about MQA is noticing that the complainers don't know what it actually sounds like, because they can't afford the hardware. The A/B test hasn't even been done!

The simplest evidence of innovation is how MQA manages data above the audible band. Are we really acting like FLAC encoding random garbage noise for 6x the storage requirement isn't inferior...?

Sometimes innovation surprises us.

 

[recycle]

Correct, except that AptX has been around for quite a while now and is supported on hundreds of devices... just not any Apple iOS devices. As an example my Sennheiser HD1 wireless headphones that I bought 4 years ago support AptX.

Ok, I got curious and did a search on which devices are Aptx ready, here is the complete list from the official website:
https://www.aptx.com/product-listin...x]=2023/03/31&sort_by=created&sort_order=DESC
Unfortunately, apple products do not use AptX