"Things that cannot be measured"

[BluesDaddy]

The thread is called what we can not measure and not what we can measure, I just come with my bid.
There is no need to make it personal, there are many who are sure that there is an audible difference in resistances. What else should we use the many types of resistors for.

If the values are different obviously they will cause a crossover to perform differently and therefore the loud speaker will sound different. I suspect, and there is a thread on this board in the subject somewhere, that demonstrations of the audible differences between "audophile" crossover components and more generic is the wider variance in tolerances of the latter vis. the former. Even with "audophile" components, they talk of precision matched pairs for a pair of speakers so the two crossovers will perform as identically as possible. Big difference between +-5% where you could have two ostensibly of the same caps or resistors with a, theoretically at least, 10% variance in value from a +-1% where the variance would be no greater than 2%. But even that two percent might be audible at a specific frequency if you knew what to listen for.

 

[Frgirard]

Audiophile components? Behind the marketing what id is it?
May be mundof capacitor?

 

[solderdude]

I ony see a guy checking values and tolerances...
This can be measured easily but only capacitance on this particular universal meter.

 

[kristiansen]

This is an easy one, actually. Resistors have different distortions of various kinds, different thermal effects, different noise, etc. All this can be easily measured and I would even say that might become audible in a crossover etc once the effects get extreme enough -- base resistance value precision-matched of course.

It was a bit of a confession, it's probably true that if THD noise etc becomes dominant then it sounds like blurring, unpleasant , like a gray mass, etc. That was what Jonathan Novick showed in his video.

It will mask the basic tone/timbre of the resistance which is what I am talking about. Carbon film sounds like that, metal film like that, Tantal like that, Vishay like that, SMD edition like that etc., the better the resistance is technically the clearer the audio signature, the more "personality" . With one exception carbon composite.
Perhaps one of the reasons that cheap Hifi sounds more similar than High-end.

 

[scott wurcer]

It will mask the basic tone/timbre of the resistance which is what I am talking about.

Yes. tone and timbre of a resistor are things that can not be measured.

 

[mansr]

Yes. tone and timbre of a resistor are things that can not be measured.

I have some power resistors somewhere that ring a little if struck.

 

[solderdude]

That was what Jonathan Novick showed in his video

No that wasn't what he showed in the video. He showed the effect of slew rate limiting done much more extremely than even early transistor amps did to make a point. Just like the other effects such as the crossover which was even worse than a broken class AB amp made. Also solely to show that THD measurements cannot clearly show that type of distortion. It was a demonstration with 'errors' in the extreme to make a point about which measurements show what.

Had he showed that introducing small amounts of distortion were increasing 'realness' and people in the audience raised their hands at the point SQ did not increase anymore then you would have made a point.. He didn't because he can't. Stop telling porkies about the video. You completely misunderstood the existence of his presentation.

 

[solderdude]

I have some power resistors somewhere that ring a little if struck.

I bet I can make them smoke as well. They stop doing that after a while though.

 

[CMOT]

I bet I can make them smoke as well. They stop doing that after a while though.

so do people....eventually.

 

[fmplayer]

All real signals can be constructed of a set of periodic functions. Let's remember that. So yes, one can calculate the spectrum of Beethoven's 9th, end to end, and then reconstruct it. Accurately, to numerical limits (with enough bits of mantissa, perfectly for a 24 bit input).

Now, using a variety of simple signals works much better than one or two tones. Various 'buzz tones' can isolate distortions via spectral analysis rather effectively, to say the least.

A signal with the frequency spectrum of the a fragment of the 9th can be obtained in two ways:
- From extracting a fragment of the 9th
- From synthesizing a continuous, periodic signal with exactly the same spectrum, which is easily feasible, but there will be no notes or melody at all

I can guarantee the same spectrum, but I can guarantee also that you won't recognize the 9th. My guess is that one will prefer the ninth, although it will measure the same.
It's sort of similar to the volkswagen measurements gate of diesel engines gas mileage. Measures well, performs bad.

My point is that we miss some meaningful measurement as to musical signal

 

[mansr]

A signal with the frequency spectrum of the a fragment of the 9th can be obtained in two ways:
- From extracting a fragment of the 9th
- From synthesizing a continuous, periodic signal with exactly the same spectrum, which is easily feasible, but there will be no notes or melody at all

I can guarantee the same spectrum, but I can guarantee also that you won't recognize the 9th. My guess is that one will prefer the ninth, although it will measure the same.
It's sort of similar to the volkswagen measurements gate of diesel engines gas mileage. Measures well, performs bad.

My point is that we miss some meaningful measurement as to musical signal

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are deeply mistaken.

 

[fmplayer]

The thread is called what we can not measure and not what we can measure, I just come with my bid.

I will quote Bruno Putzeys, who is all but a subjectivist "when audiophiles report a particular listening experience, that experience is real. Trust that. Just don’t trust the explanation they proffer" (https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bruno-putzeys-head-class-d-page-2)

 

[Raindog123]

From synthesizing a continuous, periodic signal with exactly the same spectrum, which is easily feasible, but there will be no notes or melody at all

Every single DAC used in digital playback does exactly this. Literally. It synthesizes a continuous periodic signal from ‘the same spectrum’ of the music you want to hear. Including the 9th.

 

[scott wurcer]

Also solely to show that THD measurements cannot clearly show that type of distortion. I

Distortion mechanisms enclosed inside a feedback loop are very different from running a signal through a polynomial transfer function in an open loop fashion.

 

[BluesDaddy]

I will quote Bruno Putzeys, who is all but a subjectivist "when audiophiles report a particular listening experience, that experience is real. Trust that. Just don’t trust the explanation they proffer" (https://www.soundandvision.com/content/bruno-putzeys-head-class-d-page-2)

When ghosthunters report a particular poltergeist experience, that experience is real. Trust that...

Edit: I see we're going to have to have people define what they mean by "real". It might be "real to them", as in they really believe that is what they experienced, but it is also a deceptive experience in that 99.999% of them would NOT have experienced the same under controlled listening.

 

[KSTR]

A signal with the frequency spectrum of the a fragment of the 9th can be obtained in two ways:
- From extracting a fragment of the 9th
- From synthesizing a continuous, periodic signal with exactly the same spectrum, which is easily feasible, but there will be no notes or melody at all

I can guarantee the same spectrum, but I can guarantee also that you won't recognize the 9th. My guess is that one will prefer the ninth, although it will measure the same.
It's sort of similar to the volkswagen measurements gate of diesel engines gas mileage. Measures well, performs bad.

My point is that we miss some meaningful measurement as to musical signal

Please read up on the topic before making such misleading statements.
The abbreviation "spectrum" always means spectrum (or frequency response) of magnitude and phase (or real and imaginary part, actually). Discrete Fourier Transform (yielding a spectrum) and Inverse Discrete Fourier Transform (yielding a time response) are fully reciprocal.

 

[fmplayer]

Every single DAC used in digital playback does exactly this. Literally. It synthesizes a continuous periodic signal from ‘the same spectrum’ of the music you want to hear. Including the 9th.

No. A DAC synthesizes nothing. It transforms a digital information to an analog one. No notes or tones by itself or as a basis to synthesis.
Sound synthesis is something else. Take a fundamental, add harmonics ad libitum with appropriate levels, and you have a sound hence a spectrum. Add an envelope generation, and it becomes a note. Of course, other methods of synthesis exist (subtractive, vector, you name it). An organ sound is exactly this: you add harmonics.
Play the same melody and play it simultaneously an octave higher and you introduce a (among others) 2nd harmonic component, which is not H2 distorsion but ... music.

Sorry for these musical considerations, but it's what we listen to. At least, as a musician, that's what I do

 

[fmplayer]

Please read up on the topic before making such misleading statements.
The abbreviation "spectrum" always means spectrum (or frequency response) of magnitude and phase. Discrete Fourier Transform (yielding as spectrum) and Inverse Discrete Fourier Transform (yielding a time response) are fully reciprocal.

OK, And how is sound envelope (attack, decay, release, ...) of a note as to DFT ? Fourier transform is closely related to periodic signals for what I'm aware of. There are few periodic signals in music

 

[Raindog123]

attack, decay, release,

“Everyone attack
Retreat
Attack
Retreat
What are you doing, Lee? Get back on your feet
But there's so many of them
I'm sorry, is this not your speed?”

 

[fmplayer]

“Everyone attack
Retreat
Attack
Retreat
What are you doing, Lee? Get back on your feet
But there's so many of them
I'm sorry, is this not your speed?”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envelope_(music)