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"Things that cannot be measured"

CMOT

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This thread is has became a sort of subjectivist audiophile fly paper with one deluded champion after the next making the same doomed attempt to wrest the sword from the stone. Why don’t they just read the reference section or the new YouTube videos:facepalm:

maybe the thread title is broken and that is what is attracting such comments? "Things that cannot be measured" suggests there are things we hear/experience that cannot be measured in the signal. But that is patently wrong (just like the idea that there are some aspects of consciousness or our experience that aren't in our nervous systems...). So I propose renaming the thread "Are there things we should measure*, but don't?" *Because they produce audible effects.
 

kristiansen

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False. Yes, it will tell ME, and quite a few other people, what the error sounds like. Please stop assuming that your understanding of short-term spectral characteristics is all there is.

I may be expressing incorrectly by only mentioning errors.
Hifi and its development is just as much about improving, assessing and choosing which object or topology among two or more is the most well-sounding and true-to-nature in sound, where the tested objects are not defective, but only different.

Differences can be measured on pretty much anything more or less meaningful or meaningless.

The measurement typically makes no sense before listening to what has caused the measurement difference.

The measurable difference only makes sense based on early listening experiences, or if you have chosen to achieve minimum measurement errors, measurement is typically an expression of precision and not the error structure itself.

It takes people to interpret the measurement and possibly attach a certain structure to it, to assess whether something is more natural and true than something else.

Thus, Hiraga found that a steadily declining THD pattern was preferable. This is how Matti Otala found the concept of TIM by observing and then trying to find measurement and theory.

The most important thing is to recognize that zero error is a utopia, and minimum error is not always what we humans prefer as the best and most lifelike.

With HiFi, it is important to add the 'right errors' with the right structure while keeping the reproduction precision as high as possible.

Ps. My lack of English skills is probably not enough to explain this but I have at least tried
 
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solderdude

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At HiFi it is important to add the "right errors" with the right structure while keeping the reproduction precision as high as possible.

Only if HiFi means: High Preference. HiFi means High Fidelity though. It means the least possible error and in practice it means errors below audible thresholds.

Again... you need to differentiate between transducers and the electronic path when you make generalizations like you wrote.

Hiraga found that a steadily declining THD pattern was preferable

Preferable does not mean higher accuracy, more true than the recorded signal. Adding something that isn't there in the actual recording to make it sound 'better' should be done in the mixing/mastering stage. Why would adding a certain type of harmonic distortion in a specific amount (and thus also IM distortion) make any recording suddenly sound more real ?
On top of that... that preference for added distortion (in a specific manner) was VERY measurable wasn't it ? It was not something that was not measurable yet increased 'fidelity'.

This is how Matti Otala found the concept of TIM
Matti did measure a specific type of distortion didn't he ? It was heard and measured and found. It was a degradation of sound quality and not an improvement by adding slew rate distortion (see the video you like to refer to).
TIM is not a problem anymore as it is known and designs can be made (fast output stages + low pass on input) so that this audible error is no loger bothering us. What's it have to do with 'things that cannot be measured' and why would adding a certain amount of it ever 'improve' sound quality ?

Why would adding crossover distortion 'add' to perceived fidelity ?

Differences can be measured on pretty much anything more or less meaningful or meaningless.

Finally something you are correct about. Let's change the word 'meaningful' to 'audible' because if it is not audible it is not meaningful.

The measurement typically makes no sense before listening to what has caused the measurement difference.

Unless you try to design something that has the least possible errors or the designer knows about audibility of the specific measured error(s) or when you try to 'emulate' a certain HD 'signature' to mimic specific types of devices.

Hifi and its development is just as much about improving, assessing and choosing which object or topology among two or more is the most well-sounding and true-to-nature in sound, where the tested objects are not defective, but only different.

No HiFi is about highest fidelity and not about preference. The fact that some folks prefer certain amounts and types of distortion does not make it higher fidelity or 'more true to life' but is about preference and those types of 'added distortion' are all VERY, VERY measurable and design-able by the grace of measurements which will tell in which ballpark the 'added' distortion of the original signal should be to please individuals that claim to prefer this distortion. But only if they KNOW that type of 'pleasant' and 'sound quality/signature' enhancing changes are added.

What you mean by 'improvements that are (currently acc. to some) not measurable need to be proven first. Which they can't when tested 'blind'.
Things like silver instead of copper wiring that, when 'tested' sighted, are clearly there but disappear the moment you don't know have been used.
This is something very different than closing the eyes while still knowing it is there. That is not 'blind' testing despite sight not being used.

Obviously you have 'tons' of evidence in your design efforts that show you things YOU do not measure yet sound different (but only when you know). You seek explanations by 'measurements' and continue to try to tell the 'scientific' community to validate this but refuse to play by their rules.

You must prove without a shadow of a doubt (means statistical) with rigorous test methods (not knowing what is playing BUT knowing what to listen FOR) to impartial folks the 'improvements that do not show up in any measurements DO exist. You failed so far and that's why you hang on to the 'knowing' part. That makes it easy.
 
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fmplayer

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Ah accuracy ...
OK, but accuracy to what ?
Most of measurements we do are based on periodic signals, as if music, be it recorded or not, was a periodic signal. Is it ?
Sadly, nope, it would be so simple. Only way to make music periodic is to play the same track twice in a row.
So, is accuracy to some discrete frequencies waveform, real accuracy ?
Can a bunch of notes played on an instrument be reduced to 3 pure tones (1 for DHT, 18 and 19 kHz for IMD). Seems a little reductive to me. Where are measurements of reproduction of dynamic phenomena, particularly microdynamics. Every single note played or sung is a succession of a dynamic phenomena, a variation of envelope and harmonic content. Nothing static. Nothing periodic. Extracting a short part of such a signal and consider it as periodic to be representative of the whole seems a little reductive to me.
So, performing a Fourier analysis of single 1kHz tone played and say that DHT is under hearing threshold just says what it says: Accuracy to a sinusoidal 1kHz signal is good. Nothing less, but also alas nothing more. It does not say much about accuracy to a complex dynamic musical content.

But maybe there are some measurements that I don't know of. I'm all ears (well, eyes to read rather).

Long story short. Measurements yes, but more measurements please
 
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j_j

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Differences can be measured on pretty much anything more or less meaningful or meaningless.
Depends on how you evaluate differences. Which is why I said long ago that using short-term spectra might be a useful thing, that because that's how the ear works, on short-term spectra.
The measurement typically makes no sense before listening to what has caused the measurement difference.
Except when it corresponds to how the ear works.
Thus, Hiraga found that a steadily declining THD pattern was preferable. This is how Matti Otala found the concept of TIM by observing and then trying to find measurement and theory.
Both of which make striking visible errors in short-term spectra at some times.
 

j_j

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Ah accuracy ...
OK, but accuracy to what ?
Most of measurements we do are based on periodic signals, as if music, be it recorded or not, was a periodic signal. Is it ?

All real signals can be constructed of a set of periodic functions. Let's remember that. So yes, one can calculate the spectrum of Beethoven's 9th, end to end, and then reconstruct it. Accurately, to numerical limits (with enough bits of mantissa, perfectly for a 24 bit input).

Now, using a variety of simple signals works much better than one or two tones. Various 'buzz tones' can isolate distortions via spectral analysis rather effectively, to say the least.
 

KSTR

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@kristiansen, Nobody really uses 1kHz SINAD, except Amir for a basic ranking.
Of the "static" test signals for electronics I find the 7kHz+13kHz IMD the best (thanks alexcp @DIYaudio.com) as it has both an even and an odd order product around 20kHz. Combine this in short-term spectral analysis with different pre-conditioning (like a high power signal) and you already see a lot of things.
And of course there always is the sledgehammer method of subtractive analysis which by design reveals everything (after de-embedding any linear difference -- frequency response (magnitude and phase) of output signal. I'm not going to link to my thread dealing with this once again...
 

solderdude

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Ah accuracy ...
OK, but accuracy to what ?

Accuracy from the output signal to the actual input.

Can a bunch of notes played on an instrument be reduced to 3 pure tones (1 for DHT, 18 and 19 kHz for IMD)

This is a rather silly question is it, as if those 2 measurements can fully characterize the transfer function. There is not a single person around who would believe these 2 measurements are all that is needed.

So, performing a Fourier analysis of single 1kHz tone played and say that DHT is under hearing threshold just says what it says: Accuracy to a sinusoidal 1kHz signal is good. Nothing less, but also alas nothing more. It does not say much about accuracy to a complex dynamic musical content.

yes, correct. Are you implying that 'we' think this is all that matters based on a chart ranking SINAD ?

Is it the ONLY measurement Amir does and bases his opinion on ... really ?

Measurements yes, but more measurements please

For sure... but the topic is things that can not be measured which is not the same as things that aren't measured.
 

kristiansen

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Depends on how you evaluate differences. Which is why I said long ago that using short-term spectra might be a useful thing, that because that's how the ear works, on short-term spectra.

Except when it corresponds to how the ear works.

Both of which make striking visible errors in short-term spectra at some times.

It should then be easy for you to say which resistor in another similar thread is best to listen to.

It's really an area of discussion, and there is an audible sound difference between the two resistors in a transparent system, I guarantee it.

But here I assume the argument is that there is no sound difference until it appears in a 'sevenfold' blind test with a bad hifi system and aging schoolteacher or Japanese schoolchildren or the like, so that one is 100% sure that The result is that there is no audible sound difference.
Ok it was a small side remark to the "blind test guru" Sean Olive who in my opinion presented one grotesque or indifferent result after another without being aware of it. But it's still an appropriate general remark about blind test results.
 
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kristiansen

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No, you make it a discussion.
Not only me, ASR had no justification if "snakeoil" etc did not exist, you were just a measuring station similar to those found at any serious audio company, to check if the products work as intended. But not everything that appears to be snakeoil is snakeoil, Something is a riddle that does not harmonize with the electronics theory, but maybe at some points more with the mechanical theory
 
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Hon

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Accuracy from the output signal to the actual input.

This measurement would be a killer spec. I suppose it could be expressed as a percentage. I would like to see it qualified a bit: something like "Harmonic Accuracy" or even "Dynamic Harmonic Accuracy," e.g., "DHA = 99.9999" which, for example, might equate to rendering the difference between a Strad and some modern violin, etc. Something for Cambridge Audio to aim for...
 

KSTR

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solderdude

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This measurement would be a killer spec. I suppose it could be expressed as a percentage. I would like to see it qualified a bit: something like "Harmonic Accuracy" or even "Dynamic Harmonic Accuracy," e.g., "DHA = 99.9999" which, for example, might equate to rendering the difference between a Strad and some modern violin, etc. Something for Cambridge Audio to aim for...

There is no single spec or number for this, there never will be one either though attempts have been made (DF metric)
It is possible to use nulling for electronics. It doesn't work for transducers though.
Also nulling has a downside which is you can only see differences (and hear them) using music but differences that aren't really audible such as gentle phase shifts will also show up as amplitude variations which are audible. However, when the null is near perfect (interlink cables) it is easy to conclude there are no electrical differences/changes.
One would need to use nulling + comparing with the original signal and analyze that.

As said many times before. One needs to differentiate between electronic realm and acoustic. Both are involved in audio.
 
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solderdude

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a measuring station similar to those found at any serious audio company, to check if the products work as intended.

Yes, that is 100% correct. It consists of many different measurements and measurement techniques. Combine that with know audibilty levels for each type of measurements and you are there.

But not everything that appears to be snakeoil is snakeoil

Absolutely. One can use measurements to determine if it influences the electrical properties. Separately one can also determine audibility by performing non-sighted listening tests where one does not know if the snakeoil has been applied and this is statistically proven.

Something is a riddle that does not harmonize with the electronics theory, but maybe at some points more with the mechanical theory

It is a riddle until it is sufficiently measured and/or proven to work in a non-sighted test.
 

KSTR

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It is possible to use nulling for electronics. It doesn't work for transducers though.
Also nulling has a downside which is you can only see differences (and hear them) using music but differences that aren't really audible such as gentle phase shifts will also show up as amplitude variations which are audible. However, when the null is near perfect (interlink cables) it is easy to conclude there are no electrical differences/changes.
You have to de-embed the linear difference (transfer function, mag&phase response) and then diff'ing is possible (DW can do this to good precision). With speakers the results are no less than shocking, the residual is usually really terrible. It's a wonder we can tolerate all the non-linear and noise ill-effects from speakers at all....
 

BluesDaddy

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Not only me, ASR had no justification if "snakeoil" etc did not exist, you were just a measuring station similar to those found at any serious audio company, to check if the products work as intended. But not everything that appears to be snakeoil is snakeoil, Something is a riddle that does not harmonize with the electronics theory, but maybe at some points more with the mechanical theory
But claims that can't be validated through ABX DBT are (and no need to make anymore snide comments painting all DBT with a broad brush based on reports you assert were grotesque, please).
 

BDWoody

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It's really an area of discussion, and there is an audible sound difference between the two resistors in a transparent system, I guarantee it.

Are you ready to either put money on it or prove it?

We don't want your guarantees, we want proof. Alternately, we'll take your money, but this endless stream of claims with no evidence is getting incredibly tedious.
 

kristiansen

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Are you ready to either put money on it or prove it?

We don't want your guarantees, we want proof. Alternately, we'll take your money, but this endless stream of claims with no evidence is getting incredibly tedious.

The thread is called what we can not measure and not what we can measure, I just come with my bid.
There is no need to make it personal, there are many who are sure that there is an audible difference in resistances. What else should we use the many types of resistors for.
 

KSTR

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It should then be easy for you to say which resistor in another similar thread is best to listen to.

It's really an area of discussion, and there is an audible sound difference between the two resistors in a transparent system, I guarantee it.
This is an easy one, actually. Resistors have different distortions of various kinds, different thermal effects, different noise, etc. All this can be easily measured and I would even say that might become audible in a crossover etc once the effects get extreme enough -- base resistance value precision-matched of course.
 
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