There is nothing holy about the signal

[Miguelón]

You simply attempt a distraction from the facts of the measurements and their results.

I don’t want to create more polemics but I suppose the difference between a good tube amp and a solid state not be too large?

To me is obvious that high fidelity is preferable by the goal of accuracy, but for example room acoustics cannot be perfectly linear and we all need to conform with some inaccuracy. Can be the tube non-linearity negligible respect to the total sound chain?

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

I don’t want to create more polemics but I suppose the difference between a good tube amp and a solid state not be too large?

To me is obvious that high fidelity is preferable by the goal of accuracy, but for example room acoustics cannot be perfectly linear and we all need to conform with some inaccuracy. Can be the tube non-linearity negligible respect to the total sound chain?

It’s definitely the seasoning not the meat. Although in some cases like under powered SETs the amp may be having a big impact.

 

[MattHooper]

I don’t want to create more polemics but I suppose the difference between a good tube amp and a solid state not be too large?

To me is obvious that high fidelity is preferable by the goal of accuracy, but for example room acoustics cannot be perfectly linear and we all need to conform with some inaccuracy. Can be the tube non-linearity negligible respect to the total sound chain?

That’s fairly similar to what I keep saying.
Very often, the Sonic differences we are talking about between for instance, tube amplifiers and solid estate, when they are even there to begin with, are quite subtle. They are hardly distortion machines utterly changing the sound of a recording.

Yes, subtle Sonic differences can be important to us. And so they can have a large subjective impact for somebody who cares about it. That’s often what makes us audiophiles. But let’s keep some perspective.

 

[krabapple]

Ok. It wasn’t clear that you were only speaking for yourself. It seemed like you were making a wider prescription that tube sound need only be described with that phrase. But other audiophiles are more curious than you are about the nature of tube sound, and its effects on recordings. So more descriptive language is required.

How many encomia to 'warmth' or 'realism' does anyone need to read?

 

[MattHooper]

Almost everything you wrote, shifted the subject of our conversation.

The subject you jumped in on was not whether the signal is holy. The subject I was speaking to and which you jumped in on was the relevance of descriptive language for tube distortion. Keith was implying It’s all nonsense. I was pointing out that tube amps can change the sound of a system in various ways, and in ways some people like and care about, so it’s natural and reasonable for people to want to describe those characteristics. Then you jumped in saying that it can all be boiled down to “euphonic distortions.” To which I had to point out that was hardly sufficient for characterizing he various characteristics a tube amp can bring to a system. It just says it “sounds good “ but doesn’t explain what it actually sounds like and why it sounds good to somebody.

So now that we are up to speed, I hope…

As for posting about 'all sorts of characteristics' of those distortions... how many encomia to 'warmth' or 'realism' does anyone need to read?

Plenty. That is for people who actually care about such things, and given the various different type of distortions to amps can produce and how they can interact differently with different systems.

See The Beatles analogy. “ how many words really do we need to describe the Beatles? can’t we just say they were good and leave it at that? Why bother using more language? (or if you like substitute of wine and analogy: why bother with specific descriptions of the taste of different wines? Why not just say “this one taste good that one taste not so good?” Well because there are actually different characteristics to describe… which help explain why someone likes one over another)

 

[Bjorn]

I think that nearly all of us here on ASR agree that some type of room correction is necessary, preferably with DSP. And if you correct with DSP, you will need a target curve.

For a high quality system there shouldn't be a need to correct anything other than to tailor the level of the lowest frequencies to the reinforcement to the walls. And that is called "speaker correction", not "room correction".

If we add a lot of correction to achieve a certain response, we're moving away from accuracy and introduce phase distortion as Richard Heyser called it.

 

[Miguelón]

For a high quality system there shouldn't be a need to correct anything other than to tailor the level of the lowest frequencies to the reinforcement to the walls. And that is called "speaker correction", not "room correction".

If we add a lot of correction to achieve a certain response, we're moving away from accuracy and introduce phase distortion as Richard Heyser called it.

Correction has nothing to be with quality of the speaker: is the alterations of the desired target response by reflecting sound waves by different elements on the room.

Not only walls, can also be windows, desktops, furniture… And it doesn’t affect exclusively low region, it depends on the room you can have even 1 kHz reflections.

Many DSPs include phase corrections although I agree that very aggressive EQ is not the best way to go, so we try to combine smart placement and absorption materials with filters to help in the target curve.

 

[Purité Audio]

Bjorn is imo correct, a speaker that measures well anechoically will work well in ‘most’ rooms and the only correction necessary may be the reduction in room gain in the lower bass.
Keith

 

[Keith_W]

For a high quality system there shouldn't be a need to correct anything other than to tailor the level of the lowest frequencies to the reinforcement to the walls. And that is called "speaker correction", not "room correction".

If we add a lot of correction to achieve a certain response, we're moving away from accuracy and introduce phase distortion as Richard Heyser called it.

I have since changed my mind since I made the first post. I don't think that target curves are a matter of preference any more.

 

[Miguelón]

Bjorn is imo correct, a speaker that measures well anechoically will work well in ‘most’ rooms and the only correction necessary may be the reduction in room gain in the lower bass.
Keith

The problem is that “most” adjective

I have a quite good flat speakers (Genelecs 8030 cpm), but it took me a while to place them. At their arrival were placed on a marble table, catastrophic reflexions from many regions including mid highs. After on bookshelves were lows and bass were attempting to kill other sounds, again placed on floor stands but with glass windows and door behind…

Finally got best response and minimal EQ placed at 45 degrees to each wall and 1 meter apart from the corner, -4dB bass tilt (low shelving linear filter from 1kHz down to the target -4dB at 200Hz and below if I remember well).

“Most” is usually a relatively big living room with curtains, carpets…

And I’m not a perfectionist in matter of sound, probably in the average: the mic showed some irregularities on the 250-700 Hz but I can live without further equalization (for instance)

 

[Bjorn]

Correction has nothing to be with quality of the speaker: is the alterations of the desired target response by reflecting sound waves by different elements on the room.

Not only walls, can also be windows, desktops, furniture… And it doesn’t affect exclusively low region, it depends on the room you can have even 1 kHz reflections.

Many DSPs include phase corrections although I agree that very aggressive EQ is not the best way to go, so we try to combine smart placement and absorption materials with filters to help in the target curve.

First of alle, when I said "high quality system" I'm not only referring to the speakers. I'm also referring to the room. If it's of high quality, it will involve acoustic treatment. There's simply no way around that. And we can't correct what's not minumum phase behaviour with a good result. The exception with be some peaks in the lowest frequencies, where some correction is almost always better than no correction.

Secondly, there's a big difference between how speakers interact with the room. Obviously the ones with highest quality will be able to measure the most evenly. If we take the speaker design you have (Genelecs 8030 cpm) this will struggle more because it looses the directivity quite high in frequency, and placed on a stand it will get the typical floor bounce. A better design would measure more even, and be able to work more independent of the room. So despite that the room will always contribute, the speaker design also has a major impact.

Here's a measurement of two speakers that have the exact same drivers and both measured with five different and same positions, and an average was made. It's not a coincide that the green one measures flatter.

 

[Andysu]

First of alle, when I said "high quality system" I'm not only referring to the speakers. I'm also referring to the room. If it's of high quality, it will involve acoustic treatment. There's simply no way around that. And we can't correct what's not minumum phase behaviour with a good result. The exception with be some peaks in the lowest frequencies, where some correction is almost always better than no correction.

Secondly, there's a big difference between how speakers interact with the room. Obviously the ones with highest quality will be able to measure the most evenly. If we take the speaker design you have (Genelecs 8030 cpm) this will struggle more because it looses the directivity quite high in frequency, and placed on a stand it will get the typical floor bounce. A better design would measure more even, and be able to work more independent of the room. So despite that the room will always contribute, the speaker design also has a major impact.

Here's a measurement of two speakers that have the exact same drivers and both measured with five different and same positions, and an average was made. It's not a coincide that the green one measures flatter.
View attachment 377102

low end response looks good , looks like the amplifier is rolling off the highs , use high pass/shelf filter to raise it up ,
do direct sweep of the amplifier

 

[Miguelón]

First of alle, when I said "high quality system" I'm not only referring to the speakers. I'm also referring to the room. If it's of high quality, it will involve acoustic treatment. There's simply no way around that. And we can't correct what's not minumum phase behaviour with a good result. The exception with be some peaks in the lowest frequencies, where some correction is almost always better than no correction.

Secondly, there's a big difference between how speakers interact with the room. Obviously the ones with highest quality will be able to measure the most evenly. If we take the speaker design you have (Genelecs 8030 cpm) this will struggle more because it looses the directivity quite high in frequency, and placed on a stand it will get the typical floor bounce. A better design would measure more even, and be able to work more independent of the room. So despite that the room will always contribute, the speaker design also has a major impact.

Here's a measurement of two speakers that have the exact same drivers and both measured with five different and same positions, and an average was made. It's not a coincide that the green one measures flatter.
View attachment 377102

I now understand better how you use the term.
Yes, is true that Genelec 8030 cpm is good from the point of view of near field and was not designed for wide and mid field.

I don’t think the problem was the speakers design though: reflections from wood, marble and others cannot be avoided by the quality of the speakers whatsoever.

 

[Sal1950]

I don’t want to create more polemics but I suppose the difference between a good tube amp and a solid state not be too large?

No, I've said that many times. The best of tube amp design can approach SS in transparency. But that's not what the majority of todays manufacturers build or their customers want. They want that "tube sound" in some measure which is easily seen when put on the bench. Then the high end media reviews the worst of the worst and praises them for their "warm, musical" sound. Second harmonic distortion of a beautifully recorded piece of music is NOT High Fidelity.

I now understand better how you use the term.
Yes, is true that Genelec 8030 cpm is good from the point of view of near field and was not designed for wide and mid field.

I don’t think the problem was the speakers design though: reflections from wood, marble and others cannot be avoided by the quality of the speakers whatsoever.

In general the more "near field" things get, the more the room is taken out of the equation.
The room has and will always be a problem, one we've made great strides in understanding and improving thru
treatments and DRC. I really hate my room but I've done about as much as I can to improve it short of buying a house. Grrrr

 

[Sal1950]

No, this site is about understanding how audio gear works, whether it’s accurate or not. You seem to keep forgetting there’s an actual part of the forum devoted to vinyl playback. And Amir evaluates phono equipment.

He's even reviewed some cables and power cords, did you learn anything yet?
Simply good customer service trying to separate the good, bad, and fugly for those wanting an antique toy to play with..
In the end, vinyl will never again be a relevant player in SOTA audio, going on 50 years since that was true.
There's a big nostalgia trend building in cassette and 8 track, you getting on that train one too?

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

In the end, vinyl will never again be a relevant player in SOTA audio, going on 50 years since that was true.

That is simply not true

 

[Miguelón]

No, I've said that many times. The best of tube amp design can approach SS in transparency. But that's not what the majority of todays manufacturers build or their customers want. They want that "tube sound" in some measure which is easily seen when put on the bench. Then the high end media reviews the worst of the worst and praises them for their "warm, musical" sound. Second harmonic distortion of a beautifully recorded piece of music is NOT High Fidelity.


In general the more "near field" things get, the more the room is taken out of the equation.
The room has and will always be a problem, one we've made great strides in understanding and improving thru
treatments and DRC. I really hate my room but I've done about as much as I can to improve it short of buying a house. Grrrr

Funny comment, surely a pure audiophile will buy an entire house for his pleasure !

One of my father’s friend was an architect who rebuilt an auditorium of my town and other theaters in Galicia: he has kind a bunker in his house with tremendous in wall speakers…

My Genelecs don’t go so low on the spectrum, I am pretty happy how they sound on my room. As I tell before to me music is the important stuff: if the setup is reasonable flat I can forget it.

The problem will come when I want to complete with a subwoofer: 80 to 30 hZ will be much more challenging to fit…

 

[Justdafactsmaam]

Funny comment, surely a pure audiophile will buy an entire house for his pleasure !

Pretty much what I did. I bought a new build prior to the actual build. My criteria was a three car garage that could be used effectively as my work shop and a room that would work as a dedicated stereo room. I had them convert two bedrooms into one stereo room when they built the house

 

[Miguelón]

Pretty much what I did. I bought a new build prior to the actual build. My criteria was a three car garage that could be used effectively as my work shop and a room that would work as a dedicated stereo room. I had them convert two bedrooms into one stereo room when they built the house

I must show this to my girlfriend: she called me “eccentric” because I ask the proprietary of my apart to leave a false wall in the living room to avid nodes

 

[Andysu]

He's even reviewed some cables and power cords, did you learn anything yet?
Simply good customer service trying to separate the good, bad, and fugly for those wanting an antique toy to play with..
In the end, vinyl will never again be a relevant player in SOTA audio, going on 50 years since that was true.
There's a big nostalgia trend building in cassette and 8 track, you getting on that train one too?

View attachment 377139

lol , one format i don't have R2R sounds like R2-D2 , 8track not interested , R2R is not cheap so i give it a pass unless a good model is brand new in a box for £100 and the tapes film soundtracks i doubt many was produced , i give it a pass , vinyl i only use the technics turntable once in every few months so doesn't get used that much