• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

The wealth-building thread

Chromatischism

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
4,829
Likes
3,761
Two things to note on your list.

The public companies listed (with the exception of Tesla) appear to be specifically built to "trade" Bitcoin, and nothing else.

Secondly, Bitcoin holdings as a percentage cannot be computed.

As an aside, Tesla's bitcoin holdings have produced a net loss in the company's share value, and drawn SEC attention. Hardly the sort of performance a Mom & Pop retail investor will tolerate.

https://dcfinvesting.substack.com/p/tesla-fair-value
Net loss in share value? I think you are making up the narrative you want here. Don't you think there are other reasons for Tesla's stock price fluctuation?

Look at Microstrategy. Their share price skyrocketed when they started putting Bitcoin onto the balance sheet, unrelated to their business. Their investors are more than okay with it.
 
Last edited:

Chromatischism

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
4,829
Likes
3,761
Any "news" sources that don't have Bitcoin in the masthead? This is a Science based forum - your assertions don't withstand even cursory examination.
The source is Standard Chartered bank - if you don't like the news, take it up with them.

Thus far, your support of cryptocurrency as an investment is very neatly undermining your position in its reliance on promotional materials and offhand dismissal of considered challenges.

It's a classic "Pump and Dump" scheme.
I'm not interested in investing energy into "winning" a forum argument, so it will end here.
 

Jim Matthews

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 25, 2021
Messages
1,051
Likes
1,289
Location
Taxachusetts
Net loss in share value? I think you are making up the narrative you want here. Don't you think there are other reasons for Tesla's stock price fluctuation?

I think your analysis is light on math.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonath...ter-amid-crypto-market-crash/?sh=55e171f2231d


Look at Microstrategy. Their share price skyrocketed when they started putting Bitcoin onto the balance sheet, unrelated to their business. Their investors are more than okay with it.

MicroStrategy posted a $7.5 million dollar loss last year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroStrategy
 

Jim Matthews

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 25, 2021
Messages
1,051
Likes
1,289
Location
Taxachusetts
The source is Standard Chartered bank - if you don't like the news, take it up with them.


I'm not interested in investing energy into "winning" a forum argument, so it will end here.

You made a claim.
It was debunked.

Now you pout.

So sad.
 
Last edited:

A Surfer

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 1, 2019
Messages
1,150
Likes
1,259
I cannot for a minute fathom how crypto is any different than any other man-made currency (in the final analysis). If it ever did become broadly mainstream why on earth would it not be just as fraught with the pros and cons of the current assets that people use to facilitate commerce, dollars?
 

Kegemusha

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
511
Likes
504
No point in working too hard here, the pinkos and/or politicians will take it away via a dazzling amount of taxes, direct or indirect. Anyway, am I the only one completely disgusted with the concept of "finance" aka playing around with money? Even if this can be a great boon, as your post explain, I just don't want to have anything to do with it; nor the worry I'm sure it'd bring me.

and playing with money took us to these modern times.
 

Chromatischism

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
4,829
Likes
3,761
MicroStrategy posted a $7.5 million dollar loss last year.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroStrategy

I said I wouldn't reply, but you are moving the goal posts, changing the topic from share price to operating gain/loss when your other argument didn't work.

Amazon also posted "losses" for a long time until recently. It means very little.

When you really understand how Bitcoin works and why companies and governments are adding it to their balance sheets, we can resume this discussion.
 

Chromatischism

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
4,829
Likes
3,761
I cannot for a minute fathom how crypto is any different than any other man-made currency (in the final analysis). If it ever did become broadly mainstream why on earth would it not be just as fraught with the pros and cons of the current assets that people use to facilitate commerce, dollars?
The difference is when you look at it as a technological innovation. Look up smart contracts, for example.

Also I'm not convinced we'll be completely replacing Fiat currency with it, at least not in the United States. We'll see.
 

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,502
Likes
4,144
Location
Pacific Northwest
... Now it's changing the family tree for finances so our future generations can start off with that level of happiness. ...
That's a thin line. I don't want them to have to deal with the stress & troubles I went through when young, due to being poor. But give them too much and they won't appreciate it, nor learn the valuable lessons how to acquire and keep it, and you deny them the satisfaction of having earned it themselves.
 

PatentLawyer

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 13, 2021
Messages
427
Likes
833
Location
Deep in the Soundstage
That's a thin line. I don't want them to have to deal with the stress & troubles I went through when young, due to being poor. But give them too much and they won't appreciate it, nor learn the valuable lessons how to acquire and keep it, and you deny them the satisfaction of having earned it themselves.

This. My father was/is (technically retired now) very successful, but I had to have a job by 14 and had to pay for my own college and law school. And no, there was no magic bank account from dad. And there still isn't. I think that saved my life.
 

Jdunk54nl

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 5, 2020
Messages
969
Likes
1,049
Location
Arizona
That's a thin line. I don't want them to have to deal with the stress & troubles I went through when young, due to being poor. But give them too much and they won't appreciate it, nor learn the valuable lessons how to acquire and keep it, and you deny them the satisfaction of having earned it themselves.

That is definitely part of the teaching aspect of how to handle money.

I was the same as patent lawyer only I was helping my father in his auto repair business growing up, I can't remember what age I started, but I remember doing oil changes and removing and putting on tires when I was around 7 years old. The tasks slowly grew until I was rebuilding and replacing engines and transmissions and then I went off to college to get a career that I wanted. I didn't want to work on cars the rest of my life.

My kids will have to work because they won't be getting the money until my wife and I die or we feel they are able to handle it. They won't get an allowance. They want money, they do what all people do and work for it. Complete tasks and chores around the house. Those will change with age, but they will definitely know they work and then they get paid. They won't be given a car, we will match whatever they have saved to purchase one.
If we never feel like they can handle the burden, and it is a burden to inherit money, of the money we leave them, it will magically disappear ;)
 

blueone

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 11, 2019
Messages
1,196
Likes
1,551
Location
USA
I was the same as patent lawyer only I was helping my father in his auto repair business growing up, I can't remember what age I started, but I remember doing oil changes and removing and putting on tires when I was around 7 years old.

If I found out that a 7 year old did an oil change on my car, there would be hell to pay. Just saying. Did you use a torque wrench on the oil pan drain bolt?

I also find it hard to believe that a 7 year old could put on a tire. Even on a small sedan a wheel & tire assembly weighs over twenty pounds. Very difficult to believe, not to mention the safety risks of having a 7 year old properly mount and torque wheel bolts or nuts.
 

Jdunk54nl

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Aug 5, 2020
Messages
969
Likes
1,049
Location
Arizona
If I found out that a 7 year old did an oil change on my car, there would be hell to pay. Just saying. Did you use a torque wrench on the oil pan drain bolt?

I also find it hard to believe that a 7 year old could put on a tire. Even on a small sedan a wheel & tire assembly weighs over twenty pounds. Very difficult to believe, not to mention the safety risks of having a 7 year old properly mount and torque wheel bolts or nuts.

Do you honestly think my dad wasn't helping me and standing right over my shoulder watching everything I did and checking to make sure things were done right?
Look at all of the dealerships and chain store oil places.....look at how many times they don't change your oil filter or "forget" to put in oil or put too much or too little because they hit the wrong buttons on the machines that do it now... About 3/4 of the time I pick up my truck from the dealership there is too much or too little oil in it when I check before leaving...


Anyway......If those points above were your takeaway message, you missed the point of the post......
 

weasels

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
335
Likes
547
Location
Richmond, Virginia
The difference is when you look at it as a technological innovation. Look up smart contracts, for example.

Also I'm not convinced we'll be completely replacing Fiat currency with it, at least not in the United States. We'll see.

I'm not convinced replacing fiat currencies with crypto doesn't create more problems that it solves. Monetary policy is one of the primary levers central banks have to mitigate large swings in the economy. Removing that lever is likely to make crash/boom cycles more severe.
 

MRC01

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,502
Likes
4,144
Location
Pacific Northwest
I'm not convinced replacing fiat currencies with crypto doesn't create more problems that it solves. Monetary policy is one of the primary levers central banks have to mitigate large swings in the economy. Removing that lever is likely to make crash/boom cycles more severe.
True in theory. Yet in practice, history suggests the idea is over-rated. Operating the levers in this manner requires omniscience, or at least prescience, which human beings do not possess. And those levers are a honey pot attracting flies. Governments have used those levers as often for short-term gain at the expense of long term growth, and for corrupt political ends, and for good intentions that caused more harm than good, at least as often than they've used them for good.
 

Jim Matthews

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 25, 2021
Messages
1,051
Likes
1,289
Location
Taxachusetts
I said I wouldn't reply...
Not to worry, your demonstration of integrity is clearly displayed..

MicroStrategy is losing money on Bitcoin, and has its share value buoyed by $500 million USD in bond sales.

Unlike Amazon (which has grown year on year since its incorporation) MicroStrategy the single largest holder of cryptocurrencies and your example of a successful operator in crypto trading has taken impairment losses since Q3 2020.

https://www.financialexpress.com/ma...ite-690-million-in-impairment-losses/2306676/

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/101314/how-impairment-loss-calculated.asp
 
Last edited:

weasels

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2020
Messages
335
Likes
547
Location
Richmond, Virginia
True in theory. Yet in practice, history suggests the idea is over-rated. Operating the levers in this manner requires omniscience, or at least prescience, which human beings do not possess. And those levers are a honey pot attracting flies. Governments have used those levers as often for short-term gain at the expense of long term growth, and for corrupt political ends, and for good intentions that caused more harm than good, at least as often than they've used them for good.

I think it's an overstatement that monetary policy requires prescience in order to be an effective tool to manage economies (all models are wrong, their value is in their utility, not their accuracy), but I agree that it is a complicated topic with a complicated history. IMO, that just adds further weight that replacing fiat currencies (and thus removing/weakening monetary policy as a lever) is not something to be done without significant analysis.
 

levimax

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 28, 2018
Messages
2,415
Likes
3,558
Location
San Diego
I cannot for a minute fathom how crypto is any different than any other man-made currency (in the final analysis). If it ever did become broadly mainstream why on earth would it not be just as fraught with the pros and cons of the current assets that people use to facilitate commerce, dollars?

To me the interest in "crypto" shows that there is a huge demand for an alternative "currency/ store of wealth" NOT managed by a sovereign government that can be transferred around the world easily. In theory the difference with "crypto" and sovereign fiat currency is that "crypto" had a pre-determined number that will be issued rather than just printed at the whim of a sovereign. On the other hand a sovereign can borrow and collect taxes and do all sorts of things that "crypto" can't. How it all works out in the end is not clear but a safe assumption is that "crypto" will cause disruptions and there are going to be winners and losers.
 

bladerunner6

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Sep 24, 2020
Messages
74
Likes
47
Going to be lots of problems here at home. Some US are virtually water dead and those states are going to be clamoring for the great lakes to be drained to feed the swimming pools in the back yards of people who live in a desert and the terribly wasteful surface irrigation of crops in Texas (to name only a few). California grows so much food for the world, certainly for North America and it is burning worse every single year. Hold onto your hats, it is going to be a wild ride.
My lovely wife and I live in Michigan. She has no interest in guns but she has said if people come after our water she would buy one!

If people want water, fine they can move here, build businesses, pay taxes, support the local non-profits, etc.

But we ain’t exporting it to support you bad lifestyle decisions.
 
Top Bottom