The online coffee/espresso culture mirrors the subjectivist audio crowd.

[Travis]

One of the interesting things about coffee is it's assigned a quality grade by blind testing, by qualified graders, some basic info at the link below. It's not easy to pass the exam.

What is the Q Arabica Grader Exam? | Little City Coffee Roasters

This past January I hit a milestone when I taught my 100th CQI course. I have had the pleasure of helping many people on their coffee journey and I can only ...

littlecity.com

Yes and every major coffee company has about a dozen certified graders on staff, Nespresso, Farmer Brothers, Starbucks, etc. They ensure that their growers are producing and sending product up to the standards those companies require. To a person I bet they all say “this grower produces the best coffee in the world, and they only send us Grade A.” Because they all say and claim “our coffee is made from the best beans, our Certified Q Grader even says so.”

 

[RustyGates]

So, lately I've been venturing into the world of espresso, and I see no reason to overspend, much like how I approach my hifi hobby.

As any interest takes hold, I usually check out youtube to gain some insight into the whole thing, but I'm noticing a trend that leaves me frustrated.

Ask any espresso snob on social media, and you'll get the same "you need to spend at least $200 on a grinder" or "Any espresso machine under $1000 is garbage". Oh, don't forget to spend $150 on a fancy brass and stainless tamper when your included plastic tamper $1.50 does the EXACT same thing with NO ACTUAL BENEFIT.

So far, I've got a Delonghi Stilosa, a cheap-o conical burr hand grinder, and coffee. I'm still trying to get the crema to be more substantial like those nespresso's, but I don't want to go down that wasteful route. I've read a lot of it comes down to a good espresso roasted bean and a nice fine grind.

What are your thoughts on the snobbery? Have you noticed it?

Are you into espresso? What gear have you gotten? Thoughts on the fully automatic units?

Went from a Breville Bambino Plus to this Lelit Biance V3 & Eureka Oro flat-burr grinder.

Is it better than the Breville? Well, it now requires A LOT more skill to get right, so it can range from complete **** (if you really screw up) to the best coffee I've ever had. I've been practicing, learning a few things, and absolutely love dialing in and fine-tuning the coffee to taste, and the manual pressure profiling augmented with other automatic features is fantastic.

Total cost w/ accessories here is AU is the same as a Dan Clark Expanse. Worth it? Absolutely.

If you don't care for hobby barista'ing however, just stick with top grade instant, or maybe those cheap Nespresso machines. Why even bother with the $500 coffee machine and $200 grinder? (Analogous to, "stick with the Apple dongle").

 

[Gruesome]

RustyGates, this looks like a very nice machine for a leisurely afternoon espresso. First thing in the morning, I'm pretty sure I don't want to deal with manually controlling pre-infusion and infusion time and pressure profile. Hell, I don't even want to tamp the coffee manually; too much chance for spillage before having had my first coffee....

Just out of curiosity, what made you decide against going fully manual profile control with e.g. a La Pavoni?

 

[majingotan]

If you don't care for hobby barista'ing however, just stick with top grade instant, or maybe those cheap Nespresso machines. Why even bother with the $500 coffee machine and $200 grinder? (Analogous to, "stick with the Apple dongle").

I did a couple of DBT with my coworker of a flat burr grinder electric grinder against my cheap burr hand-grinder with a V60 pour-over. Kid you not, both of us could not tell a difference with a light-medium roast pacamara beans though granted mine and his V60 pouring skills aren't top notch. There might be a difference but definitely not better than just randomly guessing which is which. Could be for espresso that you can perceive more difference, but for standard percolation method, no difference at all between flat electric grinder and a hand grinder in my experience just like DACs, but the brewer itself, in this case espresso machines like Lelit V3 against a Sage bambino is on a headphone/speaker level difference.

Then again, the electric grinder features of having an up to 120 grams per minute of grinding power is incredibly time saving especially during work breaks.

 

[r042wal]

I could tell you how I got into espresso from coffee, but it's kind of a drawn out story involving customers, travel, prostate glands, et al lol
I find it amusing but I guess you would have to be in my shoes to feel the same way.

 

[RustyGates]

RustyGates, this looks like a very nice machine for a leisurely afternoon espresso. First thing in the morning, I'm pretty sure I don't want to deal with manually controlling pre-infusion and infusion time and pressure profile. Hell, I don't even want to tamp the coffee manually; too much chance for spillage before having had my first coffee....

Just out of curiosity, what made you decide against going fully manual profile control with e.g. a La Pavoni?

Good question, I was also looking at the Profitec 800, but decided against it.

Lever extraction is a whole 'nother level of complexity and time and requires more skill to get right. I can emulate the pressure curve of a lever machine with the Lelit, by adjusting the max pressure on the rotary pump and using the paddle at the group head. I can also do flat / constant 9-bar extraction if I wanted to, something a lever extractor can't do.

Plus, I am very much into my milk drinks, so something like a La Pavoni doesn't have PID controlled boilers for steam.

As for morning, the automatic pressure profiling features are really helpful if you don't have time! You just have to set the controller right.

 

[GGroch]

I did a couple of DBT with my coworker of a flat burr grinder electric grinder against my cheap burr hand-grinder with a V60 pour-over. Kid you not, both of us could not tell a difference with a light-medium roast pacamara beans though granted mine and his V60 pouring skills aren't top notch.

The science I can find backs up your results. For pour over/drip/French press it appears getting the average size of the grind right is far more important than the lower variation between granules you get from expensive grinders. This is probably different for espresso. Still, a lot of coffeephiles think the grinder is more important than the brewer.

Check this just out FREE Scientific Strategy to improve grinding: add a bit of water to the grinder before grinding. WaPo article today "There’s a better way to grind coffee, according to Science," hopefully not behind a paywall.

Is this really science? Certainly you can see if less grinds are left in the grinder. But, if you never add water the leftover granules would stay the same day to day, and you can compensate, right? They say you also get better saturation, but a good coffee maker or pour over method would compensate for that too, right?

 

[majingotan]

The science I can find backs up your results. For pour over/drip/French press it appears getting the average size of the grind right is far more important than the lower variation between granules you get from expensive grinders. This is probably different for espresso. Still, a lot of coffeephiles think the grinder is more important than the brewer.

Check this just out FREE Scientific Strategy to improve grinding: add a bit of water to the grinder before grinding. WaPo article today "There’s a better way to grind coffee, according to Science," hopefully not behind a paywall.

Is this really science? Certainly you can see if less grinds are left in the grinder. But, if you never add water the leftover granules would stay the same day to day, and you can compensate, right? They say you also get better saturation, but a good coffee maker or pour over method would compensate for that too, right?

It's bullschiit. Pour over coffeephiles like audiophiles are enamored by toys and marketing. There are some live streamed single blind taste test of a blade grinder against a flat burr with pourover and the difference is hardly there at all. My experience and my coworker's experience with different grinders concluded that there are seriously no difference at all when all brewing parameters and brewing technique is replicated as close as it can.

There's nothing new with this grinding study at all since most coffee shops I've been to had been using commercial grinders with declumper and ionizer hence they're already getting consistent shots all the time. At home, RDT is essential to remove mess when transferring ground coffee from an electric grinder into your portafilter while static doesn't build-up as much when using an hand grinder so RDT is moot in that case.

The science of obtaining more flavorful shots with RDT against without RDT is pure bullschiit and the shots flavor consistency vary way more from WDT consistency, puck prep and water pressure/temperature profile of the machine between back to back shots.

 

[kemmler3D]

They say you also get better saturation, but a good coffee maker or pour over method would compensate for that too, right?

Yes... nobody doing pour-over who knows what they're doing fails to "bloom" the coffee, which means wetting the grounds a bit (in part to encourage CO2 to migrate out of the coffee) before immersing them in water.

 

[GGroch]

It's bullschiit. Pour over coffeephiles like audiophiles are enamored by toys and marketing. There are some live streamed single blind taste test of a blade grinder against a flat burr with pourover and the difference is hardly there at all.

An overly caffeinated response to an article that only suggests home users add a couple of drops of water to their grinder before grinding.

I do not know what commercial coffee shops do but I had not heard this particular advice before for home use and it is simple and free to try. I do find grounds remain in my hand grinder. I am skeptical that it makes a real difference.

The 1st part of my post was agreeing with you. For most traditional full cup brew methods using an expensive grinder matters very little. It is more important that you learn to use the grinder you have to get the correct average grind size for the method you are using. Espresso may be different.

The OP suggests subjective audiophiles and coffeephiles have a lot in common. I agree with that. It is possible that fully manual Italian machines like the above La Pavoni really do make better espresso, but I think it is just as likely that their gorgeous design, and the extended ritual and more advanced skill involved in using it will certainly result in subjective expectation bias. La Povoni's may be similar to High End Vinyl rigs in that respect.

While the WaPo suggestion is free, I would be surprised if going forward grinders may offer expensive humidity enhancement upgrade options.

 

[xray]

I've been spritzing my beans with a bit of water prior to grinding for many years. It has little to do with the flavor of the shot. I live in a very dry climate and it's easy to build up static during grinding to the point where retention is a problem. A bit of water reduces the retention and it's much easier to keep the grinder clean, inside and out. Without the water the grinds can fly all over the place, it's really annoying.

 

[GGroch]

I've been spritzing my beans with a bit of water prior to grinding for many years. It has little to do with the flavor of the shot. I live in a very dry climate....

I live in Denver, so same, especially this time of year.
How much is a spritz? A couple of drops?

 

[xray]

I live in Denver, so same, especially this time of year.
How much is a spritz? A couple of drops?

I use a couple of squeezes from this sprayer, hard to say what the actual volume is. It's a very fine mist. I only grind 1 dose at a time.

 

[majingotan]

Yes... nobody doing pour-over who knows what they're doing fails to "bloom" the coffee, which means wetting the grounds a bit (in part to encourage CO2 to migrate out of the coffee) before immersing them in water.

Hence why the article is a load of BS and that RDT makes a difference the cup against without RDT. Every static phenomenon that the article encountered is 100% eliminated by blooming the grounds. As for espresso, declumping the grounds using WDT rather than RDT (that the article is pushing) is what helps extracting better expresso.

I do not know what commercial coffee shops do but I had not heard this particular advice before for home use and it is simple and free to try. I do find grounds remain in my hand grinder. I am skeptical that it makes a real difference.

Barista in coffee shops just places the puck in the grinder forks, and the grinder grinds the exact amount consistently by either time or by weight. Commercial grinders have sophisticated built-in tech such as declumpers (so you don't need to perform WDT) and ionizers (pretty the same purpose as RDT) thereby saving time and more orders are completed especially when the shop gets very busy

You can perform RDT on your hand grinder, and the effect is that you get less static on your catch cup so you can easily transfer your grounds mess free. 1 spray then use spoon to agitate the beans in order to distribute the water droplets before grinding is all you need to do

 

[LouB]

K.I.S.S. just buy good quality properly roasted beans & you'll get good coffee. The beans are 99% of the outcome it's hard to F-up brewing a good quality bean, it's impossible to get good coffee from a crap bean no mater what machine or method you use.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Commercial grinders have sophisticated built-in tech such as declumpers (so you don't need to perform WDT) and ionizers (pretty the same purpose as RDT)

WaPo is behind a paywall, would you mind explaining the acronyms WDT and RDT?

 

[majingotan]

WaPo is behind a paywall, would you mind explaining the acronyms WDT and RDT?

WDT = Weiss Distribution Technique

In short, it's a method to declump the ground beans due to static build-up after being grinded. Home grinders usually do not have declumpers that work as perfectly good as commercial grinders hence the need to perform WDT before tamping the portafilter to ensure proper extraction for a consistent shot. For commercial purposes, a busy cafe should have a grinder with a built-in effective declumper in order to eliminate the need to manually declump the beans using WDT, saving time and costs.

RDT = Ross Droplet Technique

The RDT (aka the Ross Droplet Technique) in coffee grinding is a method where a small amount of water is sprayed or sprinkled onto coffee beans before grinding to reduce static electricity. This technique helps minimize the static cling of coffee grounds, leading to a more consistent grind and less mess. A commercial grinder has a built-in ionizer or plasma generator to eliminate static during grinding action in order to eliminate the need to perform RDT and save time and costs.

Coffeephiles like to buy something unnecessary such as this to have the same functionality that commercial grinders already have built-in as a substitute to RDT.

 

[antcollinet]

WDT = Weiss Distribution Technique

In short, it's a method to declump the ground beans due to static build-up after being grinded. Home grinders usually do not have declumpers that work as perfectly good as commercial grinders hence the need to perform WDT before tamping the portafilter to ensure proper extraction for a consistent shot. For commercial purposes, a busy cafe should have a grinder with a built-in effective declumper in order to eliminate the need to manually declump the beans using WDT, saving time and costs.

RDT = Ross Droplet Technique

The RDT (aka the Ross Droplet Technique) in coffee grinding is a method where a small amount of water is sprayed or sprinkled onto coffee beans before grinding to reduce static electricity. This technique helps minimize the static cling of coffee grounds, leading to a more consistent grind and less mess. A commercial grinder has a built-in ionizer or plasma generator to eliminate static during grinding action in order to eliminate the need to perform RDT and save time and costs.

Coffeephiles like to buy something unnecessary such as this to have the same functionality that commercial grinders already have built-in as a substitute to RDT.

View attachment 332439

Someone posted this in the other thread a month or so back:

Coffee - do you and how do you consume it?

audiosciencereview.com

I commented on the video:

Unfortunately the mythology around coffee making is heading down similar lines to audio.

For example this whole idea of "stirring the grind" with a pin - is bizarre. It seemed to spontaneously emerge on the coffee forums 10 to 15 years ago - in response to some people complaining the grind was emerging in clumps from the grinder. The advice was to stir it - literally with a pin (or a paper clip, or similar) Utterly ridiculous even then, when you see how much structural integrity these "clumps" have. Lightly touch them and they fall apart. The idea of any trace of clumps still existing after any reasonable tamp is daft. I suspect that people with poor grinders, unable to give a fine/even enough grind, then got water channelling through the puck and blamed it on the clumps, rather than the grind consistency. Now you have a ridiculously over engineered machine to do the totally pointless stirring for you. There aren't enough

Now there may be commercial grinders with this functionality built in - if so, I still hold it to be driven by the mythology.

 

[delta76]

So, lately I've been venturing into the world of espresso, and I see no reason to overspend, much like how I approach my hifi hobby.

As any interest takes hold, I usually check out youtube to gain some insight into the whole thing, but I'm noticing a trend that leaves me frustrated.

Ask any espresso snob on social media, and you'll get the same "you need to spend at least $200 on a grinder" or "Any espresso machine under $1000 is garbage". Oh, don't forget to spend $150 on a fancy brass and stainless tamper when your included plastic tamper $1.50 does the EXACT same thing with NO ACTUAL BENEFIT.

So far, I've got a Delonghi Stilosa, a cheap-o conical burr hand grinder, and coffee. I'm still trying to get the crema to be more substantial like those nespresso's, but I don't want to go down that wasteful route. I've read a lot of it comes down to a good espresso roasted bean and a nice fine grind.

What are your thoughts on the snobbery? Have you noticed it?

Are you into espresso? What gear have you gotten? Thoughts on the fully automatic units?

that is not what I heard, maybe you are in a different crowd than me?
what I heard is mostly "grinder is important than the machine, so spend money on a nice grinder and the rest on the machine". Same as here when people suggest to spend more money on speakers and less on DAC, amp and the like
Of course there are people raving for a $200 force tamper or a $200 weber basket, but it's mostly about the experience, not espresso quality.
And I have to disagree on the tamper - it is different. very different between a nice, heavy, well made tamper, does not need to be fancy, $30 motta will do, compared to a $1.5 plastic one. The feeling in your hand is different. Then you have the balanced tamper, which ensures a balanced tamp every time (important for consistency). and then the click feedback. I can't justify spending $200 for a tamper, but I can understand why people do. It's the experience. For most people, making espresso is as enjoyable as drinking it, if not more (I'm guilty as charged)

I started with a Sage, then upgraded to a nice dual machine + grinder, it was a huge jump in both workflow, and in cup. I upgraded again to an even nicer machine and grinder, this time not much things to notice in cup, but definitely in the workflow (and of course, look). I can't never enjoy a cup from a superautomatic again.

now, coffee world, espresso, like any other things, suffered from influencers plague. people posted/are posting a lot of ridiculous process on youtube tiktok etc. but there are things that are true and have been said for years if not decades.

 

[delta76]

I stopped bothering with extreme coffee perfection when my plumbed-in twin boiler, 2 group head Italian machine developed a leak on my benchtop. Packed it up, took it and the commercial grinder to my storeroom where it languishes for the last decade or more.

Drank tea for 10 years and recently even have been enjoying instant coffee.

Just can't be bothered with all the coffee BS anymore. Bean variations, even from previously consistent roasters was a problem and the catch 22 of having to buy a lot of beans to get the best price, but then not being able to use them before they are no longer fresh.

Don't miss the constant cleaning of the portafilters, screens, emptying the skeezy coffee water etc etc.

I have one keyword for you - home roasting