The online coffee/espresso culture mirrors the subjectivist audio crowd.

[FrantzM]

sorry, what?
James Hoffmann is the most knowledgeable and balanced Youtube reviewer I know of - and yes I did watch a lot of reviews. He (and his team) did their homework intensively and his have done fair amount of scientific researches, and blind testing.
For the video in question, yes he does own a particles analyzer and did a fair bit of tests with it. Remember there is still not a solid ground (pun intended) between particles distribution (and even more importantly, shape) and the taste of the coffee/espresso. You have to realize on the taste bud of the reviewer, and if I have to choose one, it's James. Also a grinder is more than just particle distribution, it's retention, noise, easy of use etc.

James is not perfect but he has a profile that most baristas can only dream of, and I find his style of presentable to be easy to watch and understand. He chooses his words carefully to make them on point but also balanced - and he always stresses that it's his personal opinion. He showed class acts during the years (when he actually gave the eye watering 20k$ espresso machine to his supporters before publishing the review to avoid a wave of people to register his patreon just for a chance of winning it, etc.). He also never recommend something because it's "more expensive" (he did review some absurdly expensive ones, but just for fun).

James has done, probably more than anyone else, good things to coffee world in the last decade. calling him the "The Absolute Sound Michael Fremer for Coffee.." is very unfair to him

I stand corrected. Will watch more of his videos. based on those posts.

Peace.

 

[Keith_W]

sorry, what?
James Hoffmann is the most knowledgeable and balanced Youtube reviewer I know of - and yes I did watch a lot of reviews. He (and his team) did their homework intensively and his have done fair amount of scientific researches, and blind testing.
For the video in question, yes he does own a particles analyzer and did a fair bit of tests with it. Remember there is still not a solid ground (pun intended) between particles distribution (and even more importantly, shape) and the taste of the coffee/espresso. You have to realize on the taste bud of the reviewer, and if I have to choose one, it's James. Also a grinder is more than just particle distribution, it's retention, noise, easy of use etc.

James is not perfect but he has a profile that most baristas can only dream of, and I find his style of presentable to be easy to watch and understand. He chooses his words carefully to make them on point but also balanced - and he always stresses that it's his personal opinion. He showed class acts during the years (when he actually gave the eye watering 20k$ espresso machine to his supporters before publishing the review to avoid a wave of people to register his patreon just for a chance of winning it, etc.). He also never recommend something because it's "more expensive" (he did review some absurdly expensive ones, but just for fun).

James has done, probably more than anyone else, good things to coffee world in the last decade. calling him the "The Absolute Sound Michael Fremer for Coffee.." is very unfair to him

I watch Hoffman videos and I marvel at his sensitive tastebuds. If you ask me, I can't taste hints of bergamot, madagascar vanilla, dark stone fruit or whatever else he is using to describe the coffee. I mix up my instant powdered coffee in the morning, put it in a tumbler, and drink it on the train. About the only difference I can tell is how much caffeine is in the coffee, which is easily measured by what time I need to get my next hit.

 

[delta76]

I watch Hoffman videos and I marvel at his sensitive tastebuds. If you ask me, I can't taste hints of bergamot, madagascar vanilla, dark stone fruit or whatever else he is using to describe the coffee. I mix up my instant powdered coffee in the morning, put it in a tumbler, and drink it on the train. About the only difference I can tell is how much caffeine is in the coffee, which is easily measured by what time I need to get my next hit.

Some people were born with gifted sensory/taste buds. As a former barista (and a World Champion no less) he had to go through intensive training. I am told that by eating a lot of berries (in a savory way) you can improve your taste in coffee notes.

 

[antcollinet]

I watch Hoffman videos and I marvel at his sensitive tastebuds. If you ask me, I can't taste hints of bergamot, madagascar vanilla, dark stone fruit or whatever else he is using to describe the coffee. I mix up my instant powdered coffee in the morning, put it in a tumbler, and drink it on the train. About the only difference I can tell is how much caffeine is in the coffee, which is easily measured by what time I need to get my next hit.

Call me a snob if you like, but powdered instant coffee.... is not.

It can be an acceptable hot beverage, but bears as much resemblance to real coffee as the tiny 2 inch speaker in the "six transistor" radio I purchased at age 11 did, to my current floor-standers.

 

[Leporello]

Call me a snob if you like, but powdered instant coffee.... is not.

It can be an acceptable hot beverage, but bears as much resemblance to real coffee as the tiny 2 inch speaker in the "six transistor" radio I purchased at age 11 did, to my current floor-standers.

I regularly drink the cheapest instant coffee in the local supermarket - Coop Xtra. Fellow Europeans probably know the stuff. Great remote work coffee - hints of tarmac!

 

[Axo1989]

I stand corrected. Will watch more of his videos. based on those posts.

The video you posted previously has (ironically) a most extensive presentation/discussion of particle size distribution, so starting there will work. But yes, I think you must have formed the wrong impression somehow.

The fun extra for me was how much they look like headphone measurements.

 

[xray]

This is one aspect of coffee that parallels audio. I can certainly understand how someone could enjoy their favorite song played on a crappy speaker like a phone speaker. It's better than not listening to the song at all. Similarly, instant coffee could be enjoyed by some given the alternative is no coffee at all or perhaps a poorly made coffee.

 

[Axo1989]

I watch Hoffman videos and I marvel at his sensitive tastebuds. If you ask me, I can't taste hints of bergamot, madagascar vanilla, dark stone fruit or whatever else he is using to describe the coffee. I mix up my instant powdered coffee in the morning, put it in a tumbler, and drink it on the train. About the only difference I can tell is how much caffeine is in the coffee, which is easily measured by what time I need to get my next hit.

I know it's possible to develop a discriminating palate, at least I did for a time when working at a friends vinyard, All sorts of flavour notes, but it may take continuing practice, as I can't do it to the same degree now a decade later. Or do it for coffee.

 

[brucedgoose]

The espresso-making robot is here!

Drink up!

 

[antcollinet]

The espresso-making robot is here!



Drink up!

Not impressed by the look of any of those coffees. Looks like they came from the worst of the fully automatic bean to cup machines.

 

[kemmler3D]

If you ask me, I can't taste hints of bergamot, madagascar vanilla, dark stone fruit or whatever else he is using to describe the coffee. I mix up my instant powdered coffee in the morning, put it in a tumbler, and drink it on the train. About the only difference I can tell is how much caffeine is in the coffee, which is easily measured by what time I need to get my next hit.

To taste them, the notes need to be there in the first place. If you're drinking instant, the flavor notes are going to be "burned" and "something I can't quite put my finger on, that's also partially burned". Instant is a perfectly respectable caffeine-delivery system but it's the coffee equivalent of earbuds that came with an off-brand Android phone.

One thing I've noticed is that you can really cut the bitterness of instant coffee if you put a tiny bit of salt in there. Not enough for it to taste salty... basically a pinch or two for 12oz will do it. Sounds bizarre but I used to do it all the time, it's pretty dramatic.

When it comes to fancy flavor notes, they definitely exist, but you need to start with good beans that are brewed well. Which if you don't do it yourself, is about as common as randomly coming across good speakers in a well-treated room.

 

[Keith_W]

To taste them, the notes need to be there in the first place. If you're drinking instant, the flavor notes are going to be "burned" and "something I can't quite put my finger on, that's also partially burned". Instant is a perfectly respectable caffeine-delivery system but it's the coffee equivalent of earbuds that came with an off-brand Android phone.

I was mixing up a cup of International Roast at work and my co-worker said I should put the milk in the powder before adding the boiling water, because the water might "burn the coffee". So I tried it the other way round (milk first, then boiling water). I honestly could not taste the difference, the only difference being the coffee powder became clumpy by adding cold milk to it first. I still don't know what "burnt coffee" tastes like? Does it become bitter? Smoky? Sour?

And yes, I drink International Roast - this is the cheap stuff that is bought in huge tin cans for offices. At least I can taste the difference between good powdered coffee and bad, but when it's the caffeine hit which I need, I don't care where it comes from.

 

[kemmler3D]

my co-worker said I should put the milk in the powder before adding the boiling water, because the water might "burn the coffee".

Either your co-worker has very weird ideas about coffee, or they were pulling your leg.

I still don't know what "burnt coffee" tastes like? Does it become bitter? Smoky? Sour?

Bitter, just like any other food that got burnt. But it would get burnt at the roasting stage, brewing doesn't burn anything.

There's some thought that brewing at a temperature lower than boiling can improve flavor but I think it's mostly a misinterpretation of guidance that the slurry should be at around 200-209F, people understood that to mean they shouldn't fully boil the water, which AFAIK is incorrect.

I personally have no problem with nasty instant coffee, I just happen to like putting in the effort to make nicer stuff.

One thing I figured out in college: You can put a LOT more instant coffee crystals in the water than it says you should. So if you want a caffeine hit but you're not quite ready to snort crushed-up pills, you can just hyper-saturate an ounce or two of water with instant coffee and drink it as a shot. Basically drink a whole cup of coffee (or more) in 3 seconds, not bad.

 

[BlackTalon]

WaPo article today "There’s a better way to grind coffee, according to Science," hopefully not behind a paywall.

Fun fact -- WaPo's Tim Carmen is into vintage audio. He posts a lot of reels on IG showing his turntable playing, VU meters dancing, cassette tapes spinning, etc. He generally approaches his coffee comments the same way he approaches hi-fi.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Don't want to spend the money. The minimum good home machine is the Gaggia Classic Pro which comes in at $450, and then it requires tweaks to optimize. Then you need to buy a conical burr grinder like a Bartaza Sette 270 for another $400. Then cups, tamper, porta basket, 6 bar springs, milk pitcher. The list goes on and on. Considering I only go for expresso twice a month, and I have two barista parlors withing a 5 minute walk of my place, why would I put $1k worth of that stuff on my kitchen counter. I'd rather save the space twinkies and ding dongs.

 

[Waxx]

This is one aspect of coffee that parallels audio. I can certainly understand how someone could enjoy their favorite song played on a crappy speaker like a phone speaker. It's better than not listening to the song at all. Similarly, instant coffee could be enjoyed by some given the alternative is no coffee at all or perhaps a poorly made coffee.

That's why i get up earlier to make a thermos full of good coffee. It's nothing special, but just good coffee made with a pour over coffee machine, and kept in a thermos that i take with me. So when i work on site with a client, i at least got good coffee.

Those instant coffees and most coffeee machine's coffees are just not drinkable. Then i prefer water.

 

[brucedgoose]

I've been using the Bellman Espresso maker with really good results. Only a bit over $200. But yes, as James Hoffman says in one of his videos, if you get an espresso maker, you should consider it a hobby, meaning it will take a fair amount of time, money and energy. He's right. The Bellman is one of the simplest, least expensive solutions and its very well made.

Bellman Espresso - Cafe Quality Coffee From Your Stove

With the Bellman Espresso & Steamer range, you can easily create espresso coffee & steamed milk that will rival your favorite local cafe - all with the heat of your stove!

bellmanespresso.com

 

[antcollinet]

Don't want to spend the money. The minimum good home machine is the Gaggia Classic Pro which comes in at $450, and then it requires tweaks to optimize. Then you need to buy a conical burr grinder like a Bartaza Sette 270 for another $400. Then cups, tamper, porta basket, 6 bar springs, milk pitcher. The list goes on and on. Considering I only go for expresso twice a month, and I have two barista parlors withing a 5 minute walk of my place, why would I put $1k worth of that stuff on my kitchen counter. I'd rather save the space twinkies and ding dongs.

On the other hand, my (near) 7 yo £1600 setup has served on average more than 2 coffees per day.

At costa prices (4 minutes walk away) that would have cost around.....(tappity tappity)...£15000 - and I've subtracted my cost of beans and milk from that. Put it another way - it more than pays back every year. Not a bad investment.

And I get much better coffee than Costa would give me.

 

[Leporello]

Don't want to spend the money. The minimum good home machine is the Gaggia Classic Pro which comes in at $450, and then it requires tweaks to optimize. Then you need to buy a conical burr grinder like a Bartaza Sette 270 for another $400. Then cups, tamper, porta basket, 6 bar springs, milk pitcher. The list goes on and on. Considering I only go for expresso twice a month, and I have two barista parlors withing a 5 minute walk of my place, why would I put $1k worth of that stuff on my kitchen counter. I'd rather save the space twinkies and ding dongs.

And: if one wants to portray oneself as a man of the world (I suspect quite a few espresso drinkers outside of Italy share this fantasy), you have no other option than to go to a proper cafe. Faffing about espresso in one's own kitchen just does not sound right (even if I am guilty of that, too).

 

[Waxx]

And: if one wants to portray oneself as a man of the world (I suspect quite a few espresso drinkers outside of Italy share this fantasy), you have no other option than to go to a proper cafe. Faffing about espresso in one's own kitchen just does not sound right (even if I am guilty of that, too).

If you live remote that is hard. I'll have to go 4km to the nearest bar and their coffee is shit. The first decent coffee bar is like a few villages further (half an hour drive by car). I drink 3-4 coffees a day, that would be a fulltime job almost, going for coffee. My kitchen is nearer...