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The elephant in the room? Objective to what...

JRS

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I'd like to follow the progress of this technology. Have you another thread about this or can you start one so that everyone can do a title search to easily find any updated info.
My first reaction upon reading your link was 'be careful what you ask for because you might get it', having live music on demand sounds to be just that, demanding.

L
I will do that this weekend. It's an interesting technology that is spooky as shit--and that was through my Sundara's with no fancy hardware--I'll add links to those. Also I should probably try to find the Youtube lectures the not so mad scientist has on Youtube that are a deep dive into the concept and mathematics supporting this voodoo. Oh one thing that is emphasized--the more directional the speaker the better the result--horns and electrostatics were on the top of the recommended speakers.
 

MattHooper

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Is there not something of an elephant in the room when discussing music reproduction, that being stereo, the high technology of the 1930s.

Stereo is missing so much spatial information that whichever way you cut it, I think the limit for music reproduction is always going to be stereo recording. When I say this I'm talking, best case scenario, stereo mic'd recordings of live music, obviously any sound processed and panned through a mixing desk is false (not an accurate representation of the sound as it was played).

When I hear people say "it was as if the singer/band was in the room" about a stereo system, I have to say, I pull a slightly befuddled look. Has anyone here truly been convinced the a real person was singing or a band playing in their room from a stereo speaker system, so much so that if someone was to blindfold you and lead you into a room where a good stereo was playing, you'd say "this is great, I'm going to go talk to the singer right after they finish". Has anyone actually experienced something like that?

It's a bit of a confusing question. People sitting in front of a stereo know they are listening to recordings, so no one is REALLY going to be convinced they are hearing a real singer.

So I can only interpret your question as to whether a high level of sonic believability/realism is possible, where it *seems* like a singer has appeared between the speakers.

And to that I'd say: Sure.

I'm not saying I have experienced vocals that would have been truly indistinguishable if directly compared to the real thing.

But I have experienced vocals reproduced by some speakers I've owned (MBL especially, Thiel 3.7 speakers as well) that were astonishingly life-like. There's an album of singers doing an Elizabethan Tribute to Nick Drake. It's a small ensemble of two singers and elizabethan instruments, recorded in what sounds to me like a small hall.

When I closed my eyes, listening, there were times when it was utterly effortless to think I was listening in to that hall hearing real singers in front of me. I'd ask myself how it differed from the real thing, and...there wasn't much. At least without, as I say, an immediate direct reference to the real thing.

Similarly, I've played vocal tracks that astonish listeners and each listener reliably expresses "it's like she is right there, singing in front of me, I've never heard anything like it."

I've said before that I'm quite critical about reproduced sound, because much of the time I'm noticing how it departs from the real thing.
However a good stereo system can indeed seem to beam down a vocalist "right there" in the room.
 

Mart68

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At a meet one time they played a tune by Kansas with four band members doing a vocal harmony bit and it sounded for all the world like they were stood in a line between the speakers, albeit invisible.

A 1970s analogue recording on vinyl through Celestion 66 speakers almost as old as me but the illusion was as perfect as you're likely to get.
 

anmpr1

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An acoustic guitar or double bass is not loud. Live what is it?
In many (especially jazz) recordings, acoustic bass will be swamped by most other instruments if recorded at natural levels. To compensate, producers often artificially increase the SPL presence of the instrument, raising it in the mix during solos. Then, once the solo is finished, the bass fades to a more 'natural' SPL. It is of course a 'phony sound', but necessary for the overall presentation.

Back in the day, I attended a couple of Count Basie Orchestra shows. From the seats (a converted movie theater) no one could make out Freddie Green's rhythm guitar as a separate instrument. Possibly when the band stopped, and during a rhythmic interlude.
 

TLEDDY

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If you are looking for 'realism' in music, go to a live event, or play an instrument. A recording is just a small picture of the event. It will never be more than that. And, generally, recordings are more in the abstract vein than they are of the realist school.
This^^^^^!!
 

DimitryZ

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In many (especially jazz) recordings, acoustic bass will be swamped by most other instruments if recorded at natural levels. To compensate, producers often artificially increase the SPL presence of the instrument, raising it in the mix during solos. Then, once the solo is finished, the bass fades to a more 'natural' SPL. It is of course a 'phony sound', but necessary for the overall presentation.

Back in the day, I attended a couple of Count Basie Orchestra shows. From the seats (a converted movie theater) no one could make out Freddie Green's rhythm guitar as a separate instrument. Possibly when the band stopped, and during a rythmic interlude.
I don't think one is supposed to hear rhythm guitar as a separate instrument.
 

escksu

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haha, why such questions gets repeated over and over and over again?? Don't you folks get tired?
 

escksu

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This^^^^^!!

live concerts are actually alot worse than recordings from studio and practically 0 realism in terms of sound. Why? Practically all live concerts rely on mic and speakers, so what you listen to is simply the sound coming from the speakers instead of actual instruments. Singers all use mics too... So no, you aren't listening to the actual voice, its all from the speakers. And then, what you hear is also affected by where you sit in the concert hall (the best seats are the most expensive).

Of course, if the person hire a live band to play in a private performance or a live recording session in a studio, thats a different story. But thats extremely rare and out of reach to the masses.
 

Larry B. Larabee

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Everyone seems to be talking about getting Ferrari performance with a Kia budget. Realistic and accurate music reproduction, even in stereo, can be had for somewhere around $80,000. I don't think most of us are willing or able to make that kind of investment and likewise have never been in a position to know what state of the art actually means.
 

Newman

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No Larry, the “enough money can buy anything” argument does not hold water.
 

Pugsly

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If you want objective reproduction of a stereo recording, then that is likely quite possible, but it will always fall short of sounding like live music, because stereo is so limited in recording and then conveying the sound as it arrives at the listener at a live music event.
I think (but would be glad to be corrected if wrong) that this confuses a few different issues. The first is that objectivism is first and foremost a matter of recognizing that it is possible to recreate a signal so that there is no audible difference between the source recording as presented before and after the amplifier, dac, etc. so that there is such a thing as 'straight wire with gain' in practical terms at that level. The mysticism of audiophilia is the belief that there are as yet unmeasured variables that have yet to be discovered for that gear such that unobtainium ultra-expensive equipment retains information that is covered over by less expensive but equally or better measuring equipment. That, however, is a very different issue from if or how to use transducers in highly variable settings or dsp to recreate a relatively convincing performance in one's own room. Using very expensive equipment as a tone/effects arm that will only work for a handful of recordings is just idiotic.

That said, when we recognize that recordings that we love were mastered by people on equipment that was thoroughly less transparent than is available now, however, and that the audio engineers may not have done a good job, and that the recording could have been done in a problematic venue, tand hat it may have been mastered to sound good/passable on a wide variety of equipment at less than live spl, rather than to accurately reproduce the live performance in a well-designed and well-treated room at close to live spl using today's technology...is it any wonder that there are feedback loops of confusion?

Getting rid of a layer of mysticism so that people will focus on what actually is problematic is very valuable. In one way, I suspect that the Harman curve is important and useful just because it gives a standard so that both the audio engineers and consumers will have a baseline. Maybe one day it will be possible to use AI to 'listen' to Coltrane's A Love Supreme and recreate the sound as if it were played in one's own room by a real sax. That is a long way off, admittedly, but we will never get there if people continue to chase better sound through shakti stones and other woo rather that nailing down how and why the moments when we are momentarily sucked into the illusion occur in a reliable, repeatable manner.
 

jsrtheta

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There's a point where slavish devotion to an "ideal" experience such as discussed here turns into a massively costly parlor trick. And with the music that's done on a large scale today, there will be nothing worth improving because live popular
music is almost always worse than the recording that's on the market. Even with the loudness wars.

And while you maybe can afford twelve or thirteen channels and the specially designed room to go with them, will you be listening to the music, the room, or the gear?
 

Rc Lobarniz

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Anyway, I suppose the point of the thread is there are a lot of people here who call themselves objectivists, but objective to what?
I do not see people here calling themselves objectivist, the method they used is scientific so they are objective.
If you have followed the many post in this forum as I have, and do correct me if I am wrong, I have never read a review where I could find a subjective analysis of any of the items reviewed.
The reviews are objective to data, scientific in method, every review I have read from Amir follows the same script and that is scientific per se.
It perplexes me why some forum members do not understand the nature and intentions of this forum, even though the forum own name defines it for itself.
 
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JJB70

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I see audio equipment as being part of an illusion and that the real aim is to allow me to listen through the equipment to the music. And although I am not a psychologist I think that the mind interprets the audible signal and compensates to correct for the limitations of equipment at least to some degree. I used to be a regular concert goer in London and I think it true that audio gear cannot truly replicate a symphony orchestra or chamber performance, but what it can do is to allow me to enjoy music and to be lifted to a position where my own mind fills in some of the gaps. I think this is why I have arrived at a point where I really don't think the gear matters that much.
 

Newman

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As soon as I encounter anybody making a rather obvious statement that the pursuit of the original musical performance experience is futile and unobtainable, I question whether they are making this mistake (of choosing the wrong objective) deliberately, or whether they are genuinely accidentally misunderstanding the point of sound reproduction.

The truth is fairly simple and is certainly achievable, and worth striving to attain. And that is, to reproduce with fidelity the actual recorded music production that was made by the musicians in concert with the sound engineering and recording team. The experience that they had in the mastering suite is a work of technical art wrapped around a piece of musical performance art, and they made that sonic experience and not any other sonic experience, and striving to hear what they heard, and reproduce what they produced, is worthwhile and worth doing.

Accuracy to the original production is achievable, not unobtainable.

The closer you can make your home playback environment resemble the mastering suite (room) and speaker performance, the more you can approach true accuracy. You want to experience the actual product that they actually made for you? Then do this. Toole calls it Closing the Circle of Confusion.

Calling it an unattainable illusion is what I would describe as settling.

Let's hear from Toole himself (my emphasis added):

"It is important to differentiate between the production of a musical event and the subsequent reproduction of that musical event. Subjectivity – pure opinion– is the only measure of whether music is appealing, and it will necessarily vary among individuals. Analysis involves issues of melody, harmony, lyrics, rhythm, tonal quality of instruments, musicianship, and so on. In the recording studio, the recording engineer becomes a major contributor to the art by adjusting the contribution of each musician to the overall production, adjusting the total balance and timber of each of the contributors, and adding reflected and reverberated sounds or other processed versions of captured sounds to the mix. This too is judged subjectively, on the basis of whether it reflects the artists intent and, of course, how it might appeal to consumers.

"The evaluation of reproduced sound should be a matter of judging the extent to which any and all of these elements are accurately replicated or attractively reproduced. It is a matter of trying to describe the respects in which audio devices add to or subtract from the desired objective. A different vocabulary is needed. However, most music lovers and audiophiles lack this special capability in critical listening, and as a consequence, art is routinely mingled with technology. In subjective equipment reviews, technical audio devices are often imbued with musical capabilities. Some are described as being able to euphonically enhance recordings, and others to do the reverse. It is true that characteristics of technical performance must be reflected in the musical performance, but it happens in a highly unpredictable manner, and such a commentary is of no direct assistance in our efforts to improve sound reproduction.

"In the audio industry, progress hinges on the ability to identify and quantify technical defects in recording and playback equipment while listening to an infinitely variable signal: music. Add to this the popular notion that we are all "hear differently," that one person's meat might be another person's poison, and we have a situation where are universally satisfying solution might not be possible. Fortunately reality is not so complex, and although tastes in music are highly personal and infinitely variable, we discover that recognising the most common deficiencies in reproduced sounds is a surprisingly universal skill. To a remarkable extent we seem to be able to separate the evaluation of reproduction technology from that of the program. It is not necessary to enjoy the program to be able to recognise that it is, or is not, well reproduced."

Cheers
 

Mart68

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Everyone seems to be talking about getting Ferrari performance with a Kia budget. Realistic and accurate music reproduction, even in stereo, can be had for somewhere around $80,000. I don't think most of us are willing or able to make that kind of investment and likewise have never been in a position to know what state of the art actually means.
no, I've heard systems that cost more than that, there's usually one or two (at least) at any show.

Usually a lot of the budget has been squandered on stupidly expensive speaker cable, interconnects, power cables, regenerators, cable lifters, isolation devices that don't isolate, equipment racks that cost thousands but do no more for the sound quality than putting the equipment on a cheap coffee table, and so on.

You can get studio-standard playback for a couple of grand. Maybe less. If you make the right choices. That's the real elephant in the room.
 
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Digby

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I do not see people here calling themselves objectivist, the method they used is scientific so they are objective.
If you have followed the many post in this forum as I have, and do correct me if I am wrong, I have never read a review where I could find a subjective analysis of any of the items reviewed.
The reviews are objective to data, scientific in method, every review I have read from Amir follows the same script and that is scientific per se.
It perplexes me why some forum members do not understand the nature and intentions of this forum, even though the forum own name defines it for itself.
What perplexes me is that someone can read an entire post (I hope they read it in its entirety), seem to completely miss the thrust of the post( however clearly made one attempts to make it) and then, clip a small part, take it out of context and argue against what they take out of context.

You are tilting at windmills. I don't enjoy arguing for arguments sake, so let's not do that.

I will try and make myself as clear as possible now. Let's say stereo recording captures & reproduces 30% of the spatial cues (you might say 50% or 60%, let's not argue about details) to what extent is there value in pursuing ever more accurate equipment to the signal, if the signal itself ends up being the most flawed part of the equation?

Our intention is to enjoy music (or even sound generally), accurately reproduced through audio equipment. To what extent is stereo reproduction the ultimate bottleneck in this end?

This is question, please focus on this. Forget the rest of post, if it helps.

This is a philosophical question. Whenever I've posed a philosophical question it seems to get as short shrift as someone coming and saying that $2000 interconnects 'open up the sound' or whatever.

Philosophy is important, it is not synonymous with air-fairy, anything goes subjectivity. The two shouldn't be confused.
 

anmpr1

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I don't think one is supposed to hear rhythm guitar as a separate instrument.
It's more for the band. Maintaining the rhythm and timing. That's what I've read. But I've always wondered how much of it bandmembers can hear? Not playing a horn in a big band, I don't know.
 

BDWoody

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Realistic and accurate music reproduction, even in stereo, can be had for somewhere around $80,000.

I wonder how accurate most $80k systems are...

Fortunately, you can get there for a lot less. The myth that quality sound requires big $$$ is just that...a myth.

For those that literally bought into that idea, giving it up can be tough. Hard to tell the wife that about $65k of that $80k I spent was to make charlatans rich.
 
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