The (dubious) usefulness of subwoofers - opinions needed

[Plcamp]

If you combine L+R and only attenuate by -3 dB you are still +3 dB overall (doubling voltage results in +6 dB).

Michael

Well duh. I must have been thinking impedance while changing voltage.

 

[Plcamp]

You experience that a lot?

Heh, Not nearly enough in these Covid days.

 

[FeddyLost]

Hello everyone again.

I've made some changes in my setup - added membrane absorbers and partially replaced inner shell with heradesign-wannabe-wood-wool (switch is not over yet, but all of rockwool boards soon will be replaced with more eco-frienly materials like wood wool and plasterboard).
And I've aquired 2x15" sealed subs recently.

Now the main question is: what to do with initial concept and placement? (Maybe i'd better make another topic, but let's see ...)
I have some strong restrictions: fronts and main LP are almost fixed in their places due to practical reasons like accessing doors and not closing movie screen.
After some simulations I've found
that I basically can't make a "longitudinal" DBA because I barely can place sub behind the sofa (moving it 50 cm in front is not very convenient and slightly reminds me cheating like "sit on the sub") while it's the most profitable option .
making "transversal" DBA is useless as I'm already sitting in the middle
making "diagonal" DBA looks nice, but I'm not sure if that possible and "right" ?
making 2.2 stereo most probably will not improve anything (but headroom for annoying neighbours if needed)

Below are attached some graphs to illustrate my situation.

All opinions are welcome as now I'm like "bought a car, didn't buy a driver license" ...

 

[Bugal1998]

FWIW the only sound system I have heard which, at the time, I thought sounded better than mine was the Steinway-Lyngdorf Model D which would need a complete room arrange too to accomodate (and selling everything else to help with- the cost!)

I have to agree that the Steinway-Lyngdorf Model D is the most striking and memorable system I've ever heard. I found the sound truly captivating, with a pervasive "airiness" to vocals, strings, horns, cymbals, etc. However, it did seem to cast a certain "airy-sameness" upon everything it played, suggesting a pronounced sonic signature. It was a system I very much enjoyed experiencing, but not something I lust after. I think it would be right at home in the great room of a mansion where acoustics and absolute fidelity aren't high priorities.

 

[RichB]

I have to agree that the Steinway-Lyngdorf Model D is the most striking and memorable system I've ever heard. I found the sound truly captivating, with a pervasive "airiness" to vocals, strings, horns, cymbals, etc. However, it did seem to cast a certain "airy-sameness" upon everything it played, suggesting a pronounced sonic signature. It was a system I very much enjoyed experiencing, but not something I lust after. I think it would be right at home in the great room of a mansion where acoustics and absolute fidelity aren't high priorities.

I read this 3 times so see if this was a parody of a purely subjective audio review.

- Rich

 

[Bugal1998]

I read this 3 times so see if this was a parody of a purely subjective audio review.
Apparently not.

- Rich

Please do accept my most humble apologies... I didn't have my Klippel system with me when I heard the system, but you're absolutely right... I should never have admitted to actually enjoying a system on a public form--or even to myself --without measurements to validate my sensory and emotional perception of enjoyment. I realize now this was deeply inappropriate and wrong of me.

From now on I'll suppress--both publicly and privately--the experience of any subjective sensations (sin-sations?) apart from gazing upon objective measurements.

The problem is not subjective experience; that's what makes this hobby highly pleasurable (oops, apologies again... "pleasure" is subjective and perhaps I shouldn't assume others also experience pleasure?). The problem is people spouting subjective experiences as objective facts, and then asking people to spend their money based on their subjective experiences. I've done no such thing. I was merely relating to the subjective experience shared by another member in the spirit of community by sharing my own personal observations.

In all seriousness, the Model D is a dipole and designed to produce a diffuse soundfield (radiating into the room like a grand piano), so it's likely that's what I heard as 'airy'. But everything was 'airy' (diffuse?) and sounded somewhat inaccurate compared to what I've heard on objectively good measuring systems... but only to me, and me alone.

 

[RichB]

Please do accept my most humble apologies... I didn't have my Klippel system with me when I heard the system, but you're absolutely right... I should never have admitted to actually enjoying a system on a public form--or even to myself --without measurements to validate my sensory and emotional perception of enjoyment. I realize now this was deeply inappropriate and wrong of me.

From now on I'll suppress--both publicly and privately--the experience of any subjective sensations (sin-sations?) apart from gazing upon objective measurements.

The problem is not subjective experience; that's what makes this hobby highly pleasurable (oops, apologies again... "pleasure" is subjective and perhaps I shouldn't assume others also experience pleasure?). The problem is people spouting subjective experiences as objective facts, and then asking people to spend their money based on their subjective experiences. I've done no such thing. I was merely relating to the subjective experience shared by another member in the spirit of community by sharing my own personal observations.

In all seriousness, the Model D is a dipole and designed to produce a diffuse soundfield (radiating into the room like a grand piano), so it's likely that's what I heard as 'airy'. But everything was 'airy' (diffuse?) and sounded somewhat inaccurate compared to what I've heard on objectively good measuring systems... but only to me, and me alone.

And mine as well. I also have experiences that are difficult to align with the measurements, so I am with you there.

I went to the Absolute Sound, selected power cords, picked the first review and found this:

Furutech DPS-4.1 Power Cords - The Absolute Sound

Furutech DPS-4.1 Power Cords - Neil Gader listens to some state-of-the-art power cords that DIYers can build and customize on their own. Plus: Furutech’s affordable alternative to a full-blown power conditioner, the NCF Clear Line.

www.theabsolutesound.com

As I listened to the DPS-4.1, I found myself leaning into the moments of stillness and calm from a symphony orchestra, the measured pauses, the breaks between movements, the low-level passages, the sustain and decay of soloists, the shimmer and resonances from piano soundboards (a personal favorite), and the delicacy of a concert harp during Vaughn-Williams’ The Wasps Overture. The Furutechs added a sense of acoustic openness to all these things. They firmed up the bass and plumped up the body of the midrange, adding gravitas to the resonances of stand-up acoustic bass, imparting a bigger, wider image of the bell of a trombone.

I found the prose, though well written, familiar.

- Rich

 

[Bugal1998]

I found the prose, though well written, familiar.

- Rich

Haha that I cannot deny!

Somewhat of a difference with a plausible explanation (dipole design), vs. supposed changes that defy the laws of physics (power cords). Anyway, my reply was over the top, but I was amusing myself so I went for it.

All good my friend!

 

[FeddyLost]

Regarding another possible options
Looks like I have 2 main predictable solutions
1) Longitudinal off-axis DBA (more convenient for everyday life)
2) Time aligned 2.2 with subs placed in the middles of side walls (not so nice, but maybe still possible)

Screenshots from RoomSim are attached ... what looks more promising?

Tangential DBA looks weird even in simulation and most probably will be a long way of trial and error as my side walls have different openings and I'm sure reality will not be exactly like sim.