The (dubious) usefulness of subwoofers - opinions needed

[Sal1950]

For years I ran stereo subs but many tests blind and otherwise convinced me stereo subs are just an unnecessary hassle that actually reduced my system's performance and sound.

Dang it Don, you beat me to it by seconds.
I agree with every point you posted. Also ran stereo subs for near 20 years but have found placement to smooth room modes the better use of more than one sub.
Cheers

 

[FeddyLost]

You man sth like this?

Something more like

May not really notice when they are there but usually obvious when they are taken away. Having subs fill in the bottom octave or three can make a difference.

That's +1 reason that I've never thought about before.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Something more like

Hmm.
I can't hear any significant difference in bass definition between my headphones and my speakers.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Personally I believe it's a rare system that can't benefit from a subwoofer or 2.

After hours of dicking about with my sub I came to the conclusion I did. It may be better with two but my room is cluttered already and I don't have a good available location for another huge sub (and having one smaller than my mains doesn't seem logical.
Anyway, I am enjoying music in my room several hours a day so if there is something wrong it isn't bothering me, and, FWIW the only sound system I have heard which, at the time, I thought sounded better than mine was the Steinway-Lyngdorf Model D which would need a complete room arrange too to accomodate (and selling everything else to help with the cost!)

 

[Sal1950]

FWIW the only sound system I have heard which, at the time, I thought sounded better than mine was the Steinway-Lyngdorf Model D

They should, they cost almost as much as an F1 race car.

 

[Doodski]

After hours of dicking about with my sub I came to the conclusion I did. It may be better with two but my room is cluttered already and I don't have a good available location for another huge sub (and having one smaller than my mains doesn't seem logical.
Anyway, I am enjoying music in my room several hours a day so if there is something wrong it isn't bothering me, and, FWIW the only sound system I have heard which, at the time, I thought sounded better than mine was the Steinway-Lyngdorf Model D which would need a complete room arrange too to accomodate (and selling everything else to help with the cost!)

View attachment 116763

I had no idea Steinway and Sons are making a speaker system.

 

[Frank Dernie]

They should, they cost almost as much as an F1 race car.

Well, almost as much as a single gearbox anyway!
I am not sure if anybody has worked out the total cost of the complete car in recent years but I seem to remember a single BMW V10 F1 engine was around €3 million 15 years ago, though my memory isn't that good!
The shocking thing was that its life was around 500 kilometers and on rebuild almost every highly loaded part would be cracked and need replacing. Mind you it had 900+ bhp and weighed between 80 and 90 kg.

 

[Steve356]

After hours of dicking about with my sub I came to the conclusion I did. It may be better with two but my room is cluttered already and I don't have a good available location for another huge sub (and having one smaller than my mains doesn't seem logical.
Anyway, I am enjoying music in my room several hours a day so if there is something wrong it isn't bothering me, and, FWIW the only sound system I have heard which, at the time, I thought sounded better than mine was the Steinway-Lyngdorf Model D which would need a complete room arrange too to accomodate (and selling everything else to help with the cost!)

View attachment 116763

It's an amazing sounding system for sure.

 

[Sal1950]

The shocking thing was that its life was around 500 kilometers and on rebuild almost every highly loaded part would be cracked and need replacing. Mind you it had 900+ bhp and weighed between 80 and 90 kg.

That's nothing, a NHRA Top Fuel engine makes 10,000 HP, burns 15 gal of nitromethane in, and needs to be rebuilt, every 1/4 mile. LOL

 

[FeddyLost]

Thank you all for responses, I think I've understood something new.
But now I'll compare some other options in terms of price vs possible reliable performance vs efforts ratio and I'm not sure that will hurry with those subs.

 

[Wes]

Bass guitar or standup bass reach down nearly to 40 Hz.

Tuba goes down to just below 50 Hz

Kick drum doesn't quite reach 50 Hz.

Pipe organ goes lower, down to 27 Hz.

https://www.audio-issues.com/music-mixing/all-the-eq-information-youll-ever-need/

https://www.shure.com/en-US/performance-production/louder/professional-mixing-tips-for-church-sound

I listen mostly to jazz or rock and don't own subs. OTOH, I have Maggies (3.7) which are notoriously difficult to match with subs.

Another way to think about it: a sub means you have taken what would be a huge speaker setup and removed the bottom end cones from it. You have taken on the integration tasks yourself, instead of having a group of engineers with a lab do it.

If you do get subs, get several...

 

[Plcamp]

Hmm.

I have 21” wide open baffles with dual 15” woofers per side. They deliver very convincing bass and slam ... to just below 50 hz, after which you are just pushing air from front to back uselessly (it’s a feature of open baffle!)

I found the integration of a single paradigm sub to extend bass to 20 hz easy. I simply put the open baffle bass driver and sub tightly side by side with a 50 hz signal...and dialed the sub’s phase control until I measured a maximum one foot away.

I then tweaked sub gain until I could just notice it while playing “Cosmic Hippo”.

I do suspect that if I made the lower 15” on each side an h-frame, that could reach to 30Hz or so, and I might find the sub unneeded.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

Another way to think about it: a sub means you have taken what would be a huge speaker setup and removed the bottom end cones from it. You have taken on the integration tasks yourself, instead of having a group of engineers with a lab do it.

If you use DRC like Dirac, integrating a sub is far less scary than it used to be.

With the demo version I "integrated" my friends lil' Canton sub into his Aria 926 mains with a quick and dirty measurement (he sat on the couch and held the mic himself, no boom arm etc) within 5 minutes. He was impressed after years of fiddling w/o measurements and never getting it right.

Personally, I am once again actually considering a sub, not because I am unsatisfied with the bass my Aria 906 produce but because I am weary of seeing the heavy excursion of the drivers, especially during movies when the AVR puts the bass energy of all 8 channels into these two little speakers.

Currently considering an Arendal 1961 1s or the brand new SB-1000 pro, since I doubt that I would need more grunt in my tiny 16.5m² apartment. Leaning more towards the Arendal because I prefer the design.

 

[Plcamp]

One thing I noticed that surprised me a bit...without using a sub.

I used a dsp combine left plus right bass (-3db) at several cross frequencies and play in monophonic to my woofers. (Under 100 hz or so any stereo effect seems gone anyway). That produced enhanced bass everywhere. Not sure I understand why.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

If you combine L + R and then send the combined signal to L and R speakers, aren't you effectively adding bass energy to the mix?

 

[Plcamp]

If you combine L + R and then send the combined signal to L and R speakers, aren't you effectively adding bass energy to the mix?

That’s why I reduced the combined signal by 3 dB.I was anticipating that when audio is mixed, it purposefully makes bass below a certain frequency monophonic, so that generally bass response is better...but maybe forcing it to become combined is advantageous? I don’t really see how it could possibly hurt.

I am guessing that mixes just might have antiphase bass lines on left and right channels, which creates uncontrollable nodes in any system? Why would a mix not assure bass below frequency x is monophonic?

maybe some pro audio mixers in here can enlighten? Seems important even if it is pure speculation on my part.

 

[Chrispy]

Bass guitar or standup bass reach down nearly to 40 Hz.

Tuba goes down to just below 50 Hz

Kick drum doesn't quite reach 50 Hz.

Pipe organ goes lower, down to 27 Hz.

https://www.audio-issues.com/music-mixing/all-the-eq-information-youll-ever-need/

https://www.shure.com/en-US/performance-production/louder/professional-mixing-tips-for-church-sound

I listen mostly to jazz or rock and don't own subs. OTOH, I have Maggies (3.7) which are notoriously difficult to match with subs.

Another way to think about it: a sub means you have taken what would be a huge speaker setup and removed the bottom end cones from it. You have taken on the integration tasks yourself, instead of having a group of engineers with a lab do it.

If you do get subs, get several...

There are exceptions.....offhand some bass guitars can do 30ish. Pipe organs can do 16. Not many of either of course, but it's better to have the capability than not IMO. Can't imagine most speakers without subs...

 

[mdsimon2]

That’s why I reduced the combined signal by 3 dB.I was anticipating that when audio is mixed, it purposefully makes bass below a certain frequency monophonic, so that generally bass response is better...but maybe forcing it to become combined is advantageous? I don’t really see how it could possibly hurt.

I am guessing that mixes just might have antiphase bass lines on left and right channels, which creates uncontrollable nodes in any system? Why would a mix not assure bass below frequency x is monophonic?

maybe some pro audio mixers in here can enlighten? Seems important even if it is pure speculation on my part.

If you combine L+R and only attenuate by -3 dB you are still +3 dB overall (doubling voltage results in +6 dB).

Michael

 

[Plcamp]

There are exceptions.....offhand some bass guitars can do 30ish. Pipe organs can do 16. Not many of either of course, but it's better to have the capability than not IMO. Can't imagine most speakers without subs...

Drunk musicians falling off the stage at live concerts are 4 hz.

 

[Chrispy]

Drunk musicians falling off the stage at live concerts are 4 hz.

You experience that a lot?